Tuesday, October 4, 2016

VP debate

121 comments:

Methadras said...

Tim Kaine, Hillary Clinton's backwash.

edutcher said...

More like comedy sidekick.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

Mike Pence is great, but it is tough when the moderator is teamed up with the other side against you.

Rabel said...

I watched a few minutes with the sound off and have a few observations:

1. The cameras are fucked up. The moderator is between them but the cameras for the split screen show each of them looking to the outer edge of the screen. It irritates me.

2. Kaine should just come on out of the closet. It's a new day. It's legal now.

3. Pence's hair. It dominates the screen. He should wear a MAGA hat to take the strain off my eyeballs.

Lem said...

Twitter says Kaine is running for interrupter in chief.

Rabel said...

4. It would liven things up if the little firecracker of a moderator had brought some ping pong balls.

Hey, they did it first.

Rabel said...

5. Kaine has two glasses of water on the table by his chair, Pence only has one. The fix is in.

On the other hand, where they're placed, it looks like the glasses would be easy to knock over - to the great embarrassment of the candidate, his Presidential nominee and his party. This could be a turning point in American history.

Lem said...

CNN focus group says Mike Pence won! 😮

chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

Kaine should just come on out of the closet. It's a new day. It's legal now.

I noticed that too. Kaine has a classic gay lilt to his voice. NTTAWWT

chickelit said...

Pence kind of missed a good chance on the religious question. Kaine mentioned how much it bothered him to allow even heinous criminals to be put to death; he upheld the law of the land.

Pence could have countered that abortion affronted his faith but, he knew the law of the land, Roe v. Wade, and went along with it. BTW, the context was late term abortion which is outside the scope of Roe v. Wade. Roe v. Wade only protects a woman's right to an abortion in the first two trimesters. Late term abortion has no Constitutional protection -- zilch, nada -- yet. Hillary and her little henchperson Obama would like to extend that up to and including birth.

Chip Ahoy said...

Do Democrat officials take a 'shit-eating grin' pill before debates?
Or a 'spew empty blather' pill before debates?
Is that part of their training, or what?
Every single sentence can be Fisked with horrendous overwhelming counter examples.
They say that their aims are 'help the little guy with _____," the exact opposite of what their hacked emails reveal and their results demonstrate. In an exceedingly horrible fashion.

The kind of duplicity that catches up with you and kills you, as we see Hillary die right before our awe-struck eyes.

But I just thought of something much better for me than all this. For my thoughts must be Chip Ahoy's world centric.

Goes like this:

My doctor and his nurse did something great for me today. And I mean great. It will cut my copays in half, and that's considerable. And my insurer far more than that. Not only by making a suggestion, but making calls and setting it all up. I didn't have to do anything. They did it all. Then an email from 3rd party confirmed it.

So I just now visualized this. I can see how to do this in my mind!

I visualized how to make a cube pop up in the center of an opened card. So that the opened card will be mostly a plain white cube. I want to keep this simple.

Now that's rather tricky. It can be done a few ways.

On the diagonal, one of the ways, only two sides of the cube are attached to the card at 45˚angles.

Are you with me?

The other two sides are free.

The top is a square folded along the diagonal. And to the inner right angle, attached as a roof to a house.

My new paper will fold excellently, crisply and flat, as if on hinges. It can also be helped as with a beam of a real house. (except on the diagonal.

There is no bottom. When the card opens and the flat-roof house plunks down then card itself becomes the bottom.

Underneath that arrangement or above it crossing the central fold is a short band that folds in the opposite direction extending a short distance beyond the house-cube.

Where that band attaches forms two displaced central folds that can take ordinary popup figures. This moves the working backbone off the real central fold. For composition, So that everything is not happening on the central fold.

The figures the short figures that pop up, much smaller than the cube will be a person. And the other side two people standing together.

And the words the single figure is saying are: "Thanks for doing me a real solid!"

(The nurse might not understand wtf, but the doctor certainly will. He can explain it.)

It's just so f'k'n stew pid and that's it's charm. It's good for a laugh.

I predict: the nurse will take it home and treasure it. Because clients never do that, they never acknowledge her with recognition.

(Except one time the family of one of Bill's elderly patients gave him $10,000. saying their father would have wanted him to have it. But that kind of stuff is real rare.) Today we talked about a whole bunch of things unrelated to my health. We had a fine conversation, and Bill told me upon leaving the room, "You know, I really enjoy seeing you when you come in here." Don't you think that's nice?

Chip Ahoy said...

They have a photograph in the examination room that I looked at while waiting in there.

It's a direct shot of the Central RR terminal with the Oxford Hotel a the left. Dated 1894. Old men in Panama hats sitting outside the hotel, upper class women in long black dresses, wires on poles all over the place, trolly tracks leading directly to the station, a bicycle just set down on the sidewalk, a newspaper boy holding a folded newspaper.

I said, "What's remarkable about this photo is this was taken only 18 years after Colorado became a state. And the old men sitting there would have been alive during the Civil War. And the bicycle looks remarkably modern. Except there is no down tube, only a top tube." No cars, only horse-drawn carriages and the trolly in the distance. Why did you buy this amazing picture? What caught your fancy? Where did you get it?"

Bill said, "When we first opened two girls came around with arm loads of framed pictures and I needed something to decorate the exam room."

He thought it was funny. He never gave a shit about the picture. It's just something to put up. And nobody ever mentioned anything about it this whole time. And yet there it is, a wonderful proof of how fast Americans do things. It really is remarkable.

And the bicycle just sits there on city sidewalk with all those people around. Nobody would even think of stealing it. It's just not done. My, oh my, how thing change, in the moral and ethical sense. That would be like horse stealing. The social moral crime worse than the gain. And with no way of not being recognized with a new unearned bicycle and questioned and caught.

(Unless, cynically, the photographer put it there as prop.)

chickelit said...

I didn't like Kaine's bullying and interruptions. The moderator did nothing.

Pence came off as someone potentially better than Trump; Kaine came off as someone potentially worse than Hillary. That's a hard one to pull off.

ndspinelli said...

With these 2 Prez candidates, who may for various reasons not go full term, VP is more important. Kaine looks like a fag jackass tweaker.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

What an annoying yappy fuck that Tim Kaine is.

AllenS said...

This is interesting --

I subscribe to the Minneapolis MN newspaper, the Star Tribune. Probably the one of the most liberal rags in the nation. Here is who won the debate poll which they are running on the paper's website:

Kaine -- 618
Pence -- 717
Neither -- 118

If you understand the twin cities of Minneapolis and St Paul, this is big.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

AllenS: That is big.

It was also so annoying I could not watch it any more without risk of throwing my constantly filled old fashioned glass through the TV screen.

AllenS said...

New numbers --

Kaine -- 877
Pence -- 1020
Neither -- 183

ndspinelli said...

Allen, We'll be subscribing to that rag next month. Decent sport page.

Titus said...

I watched for about 5 minutes. I have never heard Tim Kaine but now realize he is a fag.

AprilApple said...

Trump should drop out and let us have Pence.

ndspinelli said...

April, The Dems would have cut off both of Pence's balls and stuffed him in his mouth. He's a classic VP, not a top of the ticket guy. Dukakis is the Dem version of Pence. He would have been a good VP pick. But as a prez candidate the girly Bush 41 chewed him up and spit him out. This is alpha male stuff.

MamaM said...

There is no "us" AprilApple. There's you who wants something different. Along with others who may also wish for a different selection. Along with a number of voters who helped Trump reach his current position, from which he chose Pence as his running mate.

bagoh20 said...

I like Pence.

"What an annoying yappy fuck that Tim Kaine is. "

Exactly. It looked like a smartass highschool kid debating an adult.

Lots of alpha males are assholes and fools. The good ones don't need to constantly tell you they're alphas - you're just glad they are.

edutcher said...

Mama, for some, there's always going to be that, "Oh, Cruz or Rubio would be 20 points ahead", rag, which is bull.

She quotes a PA poll with a sample of 800 and an MOE of 6.2, which is a joke.

You want to know why the polls look the way they do, take a look at this.



Monmouth University Poll
West Long Branch, NJ 07764

Nate Sliver

To:
PATRICK MURRAY [ EYES ONLY ]

Subject: Change the Narrative Friday, September 16, 2016
732-979-6769 (cell); 732-263-5858 (office)
Priority Message Do Not Copy Secure Email / Slack Only
NET MESSAGE: HILLARY-RESURGENCE
Key Notes:


Birtherism – “Backfiring”


Trump Unfavorables – “Climbing”


Minority Voices – “support Hillary”


Imply Racism (White Vote = Trump) – “Whites rally/cleave/etc. Trump”


Rubio / Murphy: Poll Accurately [ IMMATERIAL ]
SCREENS
AGE
: Attached screens will move 80% of targets into the 30-50 age range. Use included statistical model to re-skew for publication.

LOCATION:
The location-call screens will favor south Tallahassee, east and north Gainesville, Central Tampa, north and west Jacksonville, west and south Orlando, and much of Dade / Broward counties. Space Coast regions and similar must be carefully screened for demographic.

DEMOGRAPHIC:
This should be obvious. We are looking at a heavy minority foundation with a college-white salt. Favored are liberal arts degrees and, especially, sociology. See attached call-files.

EMPLOYMENT:
We prefer polling areas of high unemployment for minority response. More are available to take calls during working hours and far, far fewer of them support Republican candidates.

EMBEDED NARRATIVE
It is imperative to create a morale boosting narrative in the liberal demographics. Our last published polling note gave liberals a “week before panic.” We must deliver on a turn-around in polls or risk collapse of enthusiasm.


This is how the Lefties brainwash gullibles like her.

AllenS said...

New numbers --

Kaine -- 877
Pence -- 1020
Neither -- 183

William said...

Even the liberals say that Pence won the debate. The post mortem spin seems to be that Pence didn't defend Trump. You either take the bait or you acquiesce to the opponents' truthful, righteous accusations......It's just as well that Kaine didn't become a priest. He doesn't look like the kind of guy you would want to leave in the sacristy with an altar boy. As the Dem VP pick, however, he will be rigorously chaperoned by Secret Service agents and presents no immediate threat to the community.....Kaine's wife is seriously overweight. I'm glad that Pence resisted the temptation and didn't brag about how much better looking his wife is than Kaine's. Pence is a real pro when it come to this politicking thing.

AllenS said...

Newer numbers --

Kaine -- 1131
Pence -- 1428
Neither -- 266

bagoh20 said...

There is no way in hell Hillary could beat Pence, or Rubio, or even Jeb. She couldn't beat Romney or even McCain. Cruz would have destroyed her in debates, and also beat her. He might not have won the woman vote, but he would lose it by less than Trump will, and he would have done better with hispanics and the college educated. Trump may be the only Republican who could lose this thing. Clinton is that bad, and easily beaten to a pulp by any thinking candidate with some self-control and discipline. Even Trump could easily wipe the floor with her, but he's had a life that started off with unearned power and success that makes him think he doesn't have to work hard or take advice. Pence was a great choice. They should put him out front more.

AprilApple said...

Rubio would be beating Hillary. But "we" opted for the inarticulate idiot with massive baggage. As it stands now - Rubio is winning his Senate Seat. Trump is losing Florida. Ironic that little Trumpy could use Rubio's coattails right about now.


If little Trumpy loses Florida - it's over.

Pence did Trump a huge favor last night. Is it true that Trump is pissed? Trump is, after all, trying to throw this thing away to keep his promise to Bill.

AprilApple said...

Bagoh for the win.

Sixty Grit said...

Cruz couldn't even beat Trump. That is the definition of a loser.

AprilApple said...

Would it be cool if Trump remembers and uses Colin Powell's quote?
It should be weaponized. After all, that quote was a gift from Assange.

Too bad it's already been forgotten.

"I would rather not have to vote for her, although she is a friend I respect... A 70-year person with a long track record, unbridled ambition, greedy, not transformational, with a husband still dicking bimbos at home."

--C Powell

AprilApple said...

The MSM helped Trump suck all the air in the room. It's rigged - and Trump, the media and Bill did the rigging.

Sixty Grit said...

And yet somehow, Cruz couldn't even beat Trump. That is the definition of a loser.

AprilApple said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
AprilApple said...

Because Trump was pre-selected to help Hillary win.

AprilApple said...

If it makes you feel better to call all the candidates losers - you do that.

The real loser is US - as Trump will hand this thing to Hillary. Because - Re-read Bagoh's @10:57 post.

edutcher said...

Trump isn't losing FL, but he isn't losing CO or OH, either, but our little Bluebird needs some hypothetical to spread her doom and gloom.

BTW That "he's going to throw this thing" started off a phone call Willie made to Trump before he decided to run. the brain trust at Cruz HQ started spreading the word to all the stupids it was a deal to "throw" it.

I'm still waiting to hear what they thing the Ozark Mafia could offer Trump to make him go for such a proposal.

bagoh20 said...

There is no way in hell Hillary could beat Pence, or Rubio, or even Jeb. She couldn't beat Romney or even McCain. Cruz would have destroyed her in debates, and also beat her. He might not have won the woman vote, but he would lose it by less than Trump will, and he would have done better with hispanics and the college educated. Trump may be the only Republican who could lose this thing.

College educated? She only does best with college grands making less than 35 grand.

You seem to think Cruz would get the Mexican vote because he's Cuban. You must be joking. He couldn't even get the American vote by cheating.

And, instead of Willie's women, we'd be taking about Amanda Carpenter right now.

As for Rubio, who's going to vote for one of Chuckie Schumer's "Republicans"? It took him forever just to find somebody to bankroll him once Cruz played the dirty trick and ruined his chances for governor.

Trump's the only guy who expands the base, but we can't have that, can we?

AllenS said...

Newer numbers --

Kaine -- 1131
Pence -- 1428
Neither -- 266


As good as the CNBC poll on last Monday. Of course, some people won't want to believe it.

AllenS said...

Pre-selected, April? Pre-selected by who, or whom?

AprilApple said...

The media pushed Trump - hard. They knew what they were doing.

AllenS said...

Bullshit.

edutcher said...

Whom.

And the Whigs hate Trump.

If they wanted somebody who would lost, it would have been Jeb!, although I'm sure some people think the Ozark Mafia owns the Republican base, too.

AprilApple said...

How badly do you have to suck to be losing to Hillary?

Trump is losing to Hillary.

AprilApple said...

I can feel a Cruz Beckian Never Trumper Cuckservative eruption coming.

It's never Trump's fault. It's those guys.

edutcher said...

PS Nobody "pushed" him, but he never turned down an interview or appearance.

And he's very good copy, so why have a TV show with a low energy like Cruz or Jeb! or Rubio when you've got somebody who actually interests people?

AprilApple said...

@ Bagoh:

"There is no way in hell Hillary could beat Pence, or Rubio, or even Jeb. She couldn't beat Romney or even McCain. Cruz would have destroyed her in debates, and also beat her. He might not have won the woman vote, but he would lose it by less than Trump will, and he would have done better with hispanics and the college educated. Trump may be the only Republican who could lose this thing. Clinton is that bad, and easily beaten to a pulp by any thinking candidate with some self-control and discipline. Even Trump could easily wipe the floor with her, but he's had a life that started off with unearned power and success that makes him think he doesn't have to work hard or take advice. Pence was a great choice. They should put him out front more."

Sums it up.

AprilApple said...

Clinton is that bad, and easily beaten to a pulp by any thinking candidate with some self-control and discipline.

edutcher said...

No, he's not losing. That's why I put up a section from Ned Silver's memo to Monmouth Polls.

Some people love the idea that he might be losing and will suck up anything the Lefty media (which they say they hate and distrust) hands them. It makes them all warm and fuzzy inside. And, of course, the Trump is mad at Pence meme is being pushed this morning by such distinguished out lets as Yahoo! News.

Trump's online poll numbers were as good or better than the online one Allen posted earlier*, but we're sure he lost because CNN told us he did.

* I'm the first to distrust online polls, but Allen's qualifier

Probably the one of the most liberal rags in the nation. Here is who won the debate poll which they are running on the paper's website:

If you understand the twin cities of Minneapolis and St Paul, this is big.
is what I thought when I saw the polls last Tuesday from Time (mag) and CNBC, where you'd think the Lefties would load the numbers.

PS Just repeating something doesn't make it right. The Beast would have had the One True Ted whimpering in a corner by now because she had been mean to him and Rubio would be down on all fours behind her being led on a leash.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

ed, explain to me the battleground states that Trump is winning that will get him to 270. He is absolutely losing right now. Seriously, you are Baghdad Bob suggesting otherwise. Your Jebifications make no sense. There is no path for Trump to win unless he turns things around pretty quickly. It is possible for him to do it (these swing voters will swing back and forth fairly fast) but he is running out of time.

He may win Florida (although that is up in the air--and if he loses that he done). He will probably win Arizona, Georgia, Iowa, maybe even Nevada and North Carolina--although they will be close, but he needs Colorado, or Virginia, or Pennsylvania and probably part of Maine and NH.

Trump better be careful he does not morph into Jeb. Sad.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

ed, Pence helped a lot last night. Typically VP debates do not move elections (you know that). But what Pence did is get the press off bashing Trump like a Pinata (at least for moment). It gives Team Trump a chance to go on the offensive with Hillary.

But that does not mean Trump is winning right now. He is down and needs a Tom Brady comeback to win this thing.

bagoh20 said...

"And yet somehow, Cruz couldn't even beat Trump. That is the definition of a loser."

Lots of Presidential elections are won by candidates who could never win the Republican Nomination: Bill Clinton, Obama, etc. It's not called the stupid party for nothing. It may be hard for some to grasp, but most voters are not Republicans, and certainly not part of the the base. The purpose of the primary was to pick the Republican candidate most likely to win the general election. That was not successful, because it was not the goal of most primary voters. You usually have to aim at the target to hit it, but sometimes you get lucky. We can at least now hope to be lucky, if not smart.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

Trump is winning Ohio. That is good news for him.

Rabel said...

The grass is always greener on the other side of the Hillary.

Sorry.

edutcher said...

I don't for a second deny Pence's good job, although, much like Trump last Monday, what he really did was let the other side lose.

From the link I made above, off Ned Silver's memo to Monmouth Polls

It is imperative to create a morale boosting narrative in the liberal demographics. Our last published polling note gave liberals a “week before panic.” We must deliver on a turn-around in polls or risk collapse of enthusiasm. The data from our call / email sieve as well as legitimate polling indicates a level of despondency equivalent, roughly, to the Michael Dukakis candidacy.

What part of imperative to create a morale boosting narrative in the liberal demographics or We must deliver on a turn-around in polls or risk collapse of enthusiasm eludes you?

edutcher said...

PS For those wondering where the Bluebird of Happiness got the idea Trump was mad because Pence won, here's the story off CNBC

AJ Lynch said...

I predict the election will land somewhere in the middle of where Rah Rah Edutcher and Sky Is Falling April Apple think it will land.

edutcher said...

I'm not all that rah-rah, but I don't let the Lefties lead me around by the nose, either which is what some of the "realists" are letting happen to them.

You'd be surprised how "I'll believe it when I see it" I am, but FWIW I went through just about everybody else (except Little Marco) before I even considered Trump.

AJ Lynch said...

Ed - all due respect, you try to put a positive slant on every poll that shows Trump ahead or climbing or not so far behind. And God Bless you for that positive outlook. I hope you don't have to come back down to earth on Nov. 8th.

Amartel said...

Facepalm

edutcher said...

I'm just being realistic.

Most Rs start out so far behind the Demo, it's a wonder any ever make it.

Reagan was down 8 2 weeks before the '80 election and Bush 41 was trailing Dukamimi by 17.

It also helps to do a little research on how some of these polls are formulated.

The real point is the trolls are out to reinforce the FUD. That's how the Full Court Alinsky works - make 'em think there's no hope

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

I hope you are right ed, but I also remember how Mitt was going to blow it out four years ago and how that turned out.

And yes, the likely outcome falls on the line between April's prediction and ed's!

ndspinelli said...

Well, we have the usual people w/ their usual takes but it's been pretty civil. Kudos to all. This last month will seem like a fucking year. My current question is, can Trump take some fucking Ritalin, take his cue from Pence WHO PREPARED, and study?? We'll see soon. But, he's just so easy to pimp, even if he studies, he can be thrown off by some jabs. It's frustrating as hell to watch and if you're not frustrated you're either blind, stupid, or a liar. It's too bad Trump couldn't have Cruz debate for him. I would put that on Pay Per View.

edutcher said...

Trump was doing what nd wanted last Monday and was calm and collected.

Most people thought he won, but there's always some thing where the One True Ted or Little Marco would have done soooo much better.

PS I wasn't aware she made any prediction, just a lot of groundless accusations.

edutcher said...

PPS That's why I say the election was stolen, but, if anybody thinks it's an honest count when counties have more votes than voters and turnouts run 140%, who am I to argue?

AprilApple said...

Little big ego orange man fucked up royal at the last debate and only a total koolaid drinking moron would say otherwise.

edutcher said...

The only Kool-Aid drinking moron here is the one who is perfectly willing to believe anything the Lefty media she says she hates tells her as long as it's bad about someone she hates.

Haters gotta hate, but they go crazy when they do it.

Again, the people, even on the Lefty polls, say he won. Who you gonna believe- your psychosis or your lyin' eyes?

Amartel said...

The last debate was a draw. Thank God (or whoever) that Clinton sucks as bad as she does.
This time Trump should aim to win. It's totally doable. Obamacare is a shambles. Veterans are dying while waiting for healthcare. The dregs and escapees of other peoples' failed societies are pouring across our borders. The other candidate is a total money whore who has probably committed treason and got the "Justice" Department to cover it up. Nobody likes her. Nobody really likes Obama; they just "like" the idea of him and how it reflects on them. Also, nobody likes BLM, third wave feminists, PC professors, radical environmentalists, bake-me-a-cake gays, faux outrage and fake hate. Nobody likes the government and its absolutist, immunized, privileged ways and excessive hypocrisies.

How to win: FOCUS ON THE ISSUES NOT ON CLINTON/MODERATOR SHENANIGANS AND PERSONAL BULLSHIT THAT ONLY HYPERPOLITICAL CLINTONVOTERS AND OTHER CONSTANTLY TALKING HEADS CARE ABOUT.
Brush that off.
Practice brushing it off.
Practice again.

It's a townhall format. That's Trump's format. Slight advantage (fauxmoderator and audience filled with Clinton plants notwithstanding) to Trump.

Practice backing down a "concerned citizen" who is actually a Clintonvoter plant. Get some hispanic granny to ask "concerned citizen" questions about attitudes toward women and hispanics and practice answers that firmly reject the underlying presumptions of racism and sexism, acknowledge colorful past rhetoric without reviving it, and address issues common to all Americans.

I think it's difficult for Trump to talk issues because he doesn't really in his heart have a set position. We all know he's had a lot of opportunistic positions through the years. Pence is grounded in conservative principle so it comes naturally to him. Trump not so much. That's just the way it is. It has helped Trump in the past because the MFM couldn't pin him with their go-to haterade for conservatives and were confused and somewhat fascinated by the new animal in the forest, whether it could be tamed and brought in line.
No such luck (so far) so they'll just keep stepping on their dicks which is fine by me.

Rabel said...

There are a few things about the upcoming vote that are worth noting and seem to me undeniable.

1. The social censure attacked to publicly supporting Trump is widespread in popular media. This comes from both the right and the left but is most disgusting when it comes from the right. See Ms. Apple's constant disparagement of Trump and his supporters as an example. This could definitely be influencing the telephone polls and was not nearly as pronounced in the Romney election.

2. Despite this, the huge, enthusiastic crowds at the Trump rallies are real and unprecedented in recent times. Contrasting those with the limited, grudging public support we see for Hillary, it is hard to deny the possibility that there will be a groundswell (or storm surge to be timely) of voters pulling the lever for Trump in the privacy of the voting booth.

3. Voter management and outright voter fraud are tools the Democrats have used successfully for years. Will the lack of enthusiasm offset this advantage? Beats me, but a lot of people will be dragged to the polls and vote as instructed.

bagoh20 said...

" The social censure attached to publicly supporting Trump is widespread in popular media."

I think that is overblown and is a mistake to count on. When I was recently back in PA, the public support of Trump was nearly universal in my small blue collar town, and even here in L.A. I see more Trump signs than Hillary. I believe that Hillary support is more hidden than Trump's. Nobody is proud to support Hillary - nobody normal anyway. Most people I talk to disparage them both, but if anyone is open about who they support it's almost always a Trumper, or like me, an anti-Hillary voter who wants her to go down at any cost. I think the polls are accurate when they show a dead heat. Different demographics than in the past, but each party has lost as many as the other. What scares me is what we all know: that Democrats are more willing to vote for someone they don't really respect just out of hate for Republicans in general, and Republicans are more principled and many will vote conscience or not vote at all, which hurts Trump.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

ed's fall back on November 9 (if Trump does not wise up before then) will be it was stolen.

Losers make excuses. Winners win.

edutcher said...

Don't hold your opinion so highly.

There are a few polls that, if they went against Trump, would signal that the game was up.

Fact is, though, the blatant Journolisting of the polls makes it very hard to take them seriously. It's nice to hear of good ones, but I don't get my heart all set on them.

There's plenty of evidence that the vote fraud last time was massive and unprecedented. Vote fraud has already started for this cycle - there are stories on it popping up.

Some of the "sophisticates" here may disagree, but, if you have evidence put in front of you, and you still deny it, that's your fault.

Amartel said...

The last debate was a draw.

Depends on how you see it. Kind of like Kennedy-Nixon (the people who listened on radio thought Nixon had won).

Trump wanted to show he could take whatever Hillary and the moderator dished out and stay cool, showing himself to be a reasonable person.

This is why many people think he won.

Those scoring on points, some anyway, gave it to the Beast. One can make the claim these aren't debates, but beauty contest, so YMMV.

Trooper York said...

If Trump loses and there is any question about illegality there will be serious consequences.

We are on a trajectory. The Tea Party was the first part of it along with Sarah Palin. They were polite and that got them abuse and IRS investigations. The full power of the duopoly was arrayed against them.

Trump was the next move. Brash. Vulgar. In your face. Still non violent and within the bounds of civil discourse. The full power of both sides of the establishment and all of the media both liberal and conservative are being marshaled to shut them up and shut them down. The level of vitriol is almost unbalanced.

What comes next will not be pretty. Or non violent. A leader will arise that will make Trump look like a begin hero. Watch and see.

edutcher said...

That's the issue. Trump's supporters are so pumped, and many are aware of what happened in '12, that they are not going to take the theft of this election lying down.

Last Refuge and a couple of other websites have done a good job in letting people know how polls can be manipulated, the item I linked off realtruenews being a bit more specific.

Some here are still ready to take the Lefty media at their word, I suspect because they'd love some vindication of their opposition to Trump. They may want no part of Hillary, but the desire to say, "Toldja", is still quite strong.

edutcher said...

FWIW The Beast is "in seclusion" ahead of the debate.

One wonders if her confusion in Harrisburg is why.

PS For some one special, Al Reuters is reporting Trump up 2 in CO.

So sorry.

bagoh20 said...

If there is violence, it will further empower the statists and their state apparatus. Demands for security and stability will overwhelm calls for freedom or justice. The country is divided on what justice and law and order is today. Even people on the right can't agree on what the role of the state is despite having a clear written Constitution. Some in here pine for more protection, more enforcement, more laws, more government just like the leftists. Be careful what you wish for.

bagoh20 said...

The way to fix the nation is through voting: at the polls, with your money, with your attention, and convincing others to do the same. Stop reading lying news sources. Stop buying products advertised on unAmerican media, stop watching them, stop listening to them, stop excusing them. Stop paying them to ignore you, lie to you, and insult you. Stop empowering the state by asking it for protection from the challenges of life. It can't help you, but it will gladly take the job and then set the terms in it's own interests.

rcocean said...

"There is no way in hell Hillary could beat Pence, or Rubio, or even Jeb. She couldn't beat Romney or even McCain. Cruz would have destroyed her in debates"

What nonsense. Had any of these people gotten nominated the Democrat-MSM attack machine would've gone to work, and they'd talking about what an elitist, women hating, raciss, Jeb/Rubio/Pence/Cruz were. None of these guys could cut through the MSM Noise and gotten their message out. And what was there message? "Vote for me, I'm the Guy who agrees with Hillary on almost everything, but I'm not corrupt and I want to cut the capital gains tax".

Good luck with that. It didn't work with Bill Clinton or Obama and it would not have worked on Hillary.

We got Trump, because all those guys were lame.

We've lost 4 of the last 6 POTUS elections (and we only won 2000 because of Nadar), nominating career politicians who are "experienced" and "Presidential looking" and "Moderate" and blah,de,blah.

bagoh20 said...

The reason any of those other people could win this is not because they are good, but because Hillary is so weak and vulnerable. Trump is the only candidate who has any chance of being less tolerable to the entire electorate. Only Trump could be such a target-rich environment with self-inflicted wounds on a daily basis that the others might pull off once or twice in the whole season - things that unnecessarily alienate huge groups of voters. Only Trump has a lifetime of personal and professional choices that other large groups find dispicable - fairly or not. He is a weak candidate who is having a tough time beating the weakest ever. He's not even doing a good job of his primary strength of attacking his enemy. He better start doing it, and stop being a pussy who gets butt-hurt and distracted by every rock thrown from a frail old koot in a glass house.

bagoh20 said...

If Hillary wins this, it will be because so many Trumpers excused and even cheered Trump's mistakes instead of warning him to get better. If you want your team to win, you don't spend all season telling them you love their errors and hand them participation trophies - you tell them to get over themselves, get hard, get mean, and get the win.

edutcher said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ndspinelli said...

bags, You've made a series of great comments tonight.

edutcher said...

No, it will be because so many NeverTrumpers really aren't as opposed to Hillary as they are to Trump. You guys still want the One True Ted or Little Marco, but you can't have them, but you still want Trump to play the game their way.

bagoh20 said...

The reason any of those other people could win this is not because they are good, but because Hillary is so weak and vulnerable. Trump is the only candidate who has any chance of being less tolerable to the entire electorate. Only Trump could be such a target-rich environment with self-inflicted wounds on a daily basis that the others might pull off once or twice in the whole season - things that unnecessarily alienate huge groups of voters. Only Trump has a lifetime of personal and professional choices that other large groups find dispicable - fairly or not. He is a weak candidate who is having a tough time beating the weakest ever. He's not even doing a good job of his primary strength of attacking his enemy

And that is why they would fail.

They would all play by the rules. As I said earlier, Cruz would run off and whimper the first time the media went after him or his family and the rest, Little Marco, especially, would be all too eager to fall in with Frumpty.

As for The Donald, he has several things going for him - he's a people person and most people like him, bluenoses notwithstanding. He's also a fighter, which people like

He's also a lot smarter than anybody else in the field - look at what he's built in 50 years.

As for Frumpty's "weakness", let's all remember this is a ruthless, vicious woman who has no problem doing anything to get what she wants. Yes, people can't stand her, but she's got the media, the Whigs, and a fair number of people who dislike Donald Trump because he rocks the boat, all on her side. He's less a "target-rich environment with self-inflicted wounds on a daily basis" than someone whose foes on the right-hand side of the aisle willingly swallow the media propaganda.

rc is right in his estimation. Anyone else would be 20 points down right now. The hardcore NeverTrumpers may tell themselves Hillary is so weak, but her allies and her own obsession to go on even in the face of ailments that could kill her tend to suggest those hardcore NeverTrumpers have underestimated her, just as they've underestimated Trump all year.

edutcher said...

ndspinelli said...

bags, You've made a series of great comments tonight.

Actually, nd, he hasn't.

He wants Trump to be Jeb!.

Up until this week's polling offensive Trump was doing pretty well.

He still is, but all the NeverTrumpers are wetting themselves because the phony polls are screaming, "You're DOOOMMED!!!!", and they buy it without question, without ever asking what had happened to cause it. The polls say it, so it must be true.

Good thing you guys weren't around in the days of Tokyo Rose.

bagoh20 said...

" Anyone else would be 20 points down right now."

That's delusional. Obama was infinitely more popular with far less baggage, and he couldn't get anywhere near that against the same kind of opponents. The delusion is what's most dangerous here - a fatal self-deceit born of wishful thinking and desperation - feelings which I share without the pretending.

bagoh20 said...

I said: " He's not even doing a good job of his primary strength of attacking his enemy. He better start doing it, and stop being a pussy who gets butt-hurt and distracted by every rock thrown from a frail old koot in a glass house."

Does that sound like a call for Jeb? Of course not, but even suggesting Trump needs to do anything different is like I'm attacking your handicapped child. You sound more defensive (worried) than I am. That's good, but refusing to see mistakes is enabling weakness and failure.

Trooper York said...

What unmitigated bullshit.

bagoh20 said...

Thanks, Spinelli.

bagoh20 said...

"Up until this week's polling offensive Trump was doing pretty well."

She would be down 10-15 points against anyone who could take it to her with even a little message discipline and intelligence. A better candidate would have the press frantic right now trying to defend her rather than having a field day with his taxes, and his long history of exploitable statements, missteps, and flat out fabrications. He's been on defense for weeks now. That's upside down. Does he even know what's wrong with her? He's hasn't made much of a case, and it's getting late.

ndspinelli said...

You can tell how Trump is doing by reading the angry, foreboding and frenetic comments from a few. I hope he turns it around. I think it's possible. But he is going to need a big assist, the most likely being a national or world crisis. I wouldn't count on Julian Assange. Trump's hurdles are himself, the MSM, the duopoly, and his lemming supporters.. roughly in that order.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

Troop, if this election was actually stolen, I would be with you on the barricades.

Okay, we would have to sling yours and ed's sorry asses up on the barricade, but I would be there with you pulling the hoist.

But what worries me is Trump throwing this away. Hey, I hope ed is totally vindicated and this is in the bag for the Donald. But you and i both know there is a problem and he could lose this. You can't cry voter fraud when Trump is engaging in incompetence.

He needs to prep like Pence did for the debates and take this shit seriously. Because his hubris is not working.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

ABC: Always Be Closing

Rabel said...

In your 10-15 point assessment you're underestimating the votes your imaginary candidate would lose if the message in his message discipline was pro immigration and same old same old Republican party bullshit. Or maybe you visualize the renegade Cruz but with extra added charisma. I don't know but I don't see the guy you wish for in the former Republican field.

Trooper York said...

Sing the same song. It has been the song since the beginning.

Some imaginary Republican candidate would be kicking her ass. Listen. It is all rigged. The FBI was rigged. "Any Republican would be ten points behind her right now." What unmitigated bullshit. The only reason why Trump is within striking distance is that he is running a populist campaign that the working class can get behind. Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio or Scott Walker or Bobby Jindal or anyone else you want to pretend would be a better candidate would have gone the way of Mitt Romney.

The establishment of both sides is in a frenzy to beat Trump. Because he upsets their comfortable applecart. That is why they have been so savage in their attacks.

There have been many ups and downs so far in this election. There will be many more before this is over. It will be decided in the last three days before the election.

But it is good to know where you stand. Sing the same old song. Because you are singing to the choir.
So keep on singing that same song.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

I could care less about Cruz and I only care about Rubio winning in Florida.

They lost in the primary. Trump beat them. I do not care about that any more. I do not give a shit about the past. The past is for losers.

Now it is Trump and Hillary. That is all that matters. Game of Thrones. You win or you are a fucking loser.

Now Trump need to win.

Trooper York said...

I am confident that Trump will win. I discount the same bullshit from commentors here with a vested interest in his failure as I do the nonsense from the corrupt mainstream media.

The only way Trump loses is through manipulation of the vote in one matter on another. Which we know they will attempt. Which we know the FBI and the Justice Department will cover up just as they did Hillary's emails.

What make you think that Trump will get a square deal? His only chance is winning over and beyond the margin of error. Which will be very tough. But very doable.


bagoh20 said...

"... anyone else you want to pretend would be a better candidate would have gone the way of Mitt Romney."

You really believe the seriously damaged, highly unpopular Hillary could beat Romney right now? Obama was still very popular, with far less negatives. Independents would love to have Romney to vote for rather than either of the two choices they have, and independents are what really decide the thing, not to mention all the Trumpers would still vote for him over her. Hillary is no Obama, she's not even a Dukakis. She is the Republican dream opponent.

bagoh20 said...

And so the hedging begins - the excuses locked and loaded.

bagoh20 said...

http://imgur.com/gallery/vWm08

Trooper York said...

Yes I seriously think that Romney would have been rolled just like he was the last time.

There are no excuses. If Trump loses it will be because of people who have a vested interest in the continuation of the duopoly. People like you bags.

I think he will win. At least on paper. You do realize that there is talk of the electors voting for someone else even if he wins their state. I think that is entirely possible.

Trump and American Nationalism is the only hope for our country. Because if Hillary is dragged across the finish line by the corrupt media and the entrenched interests of both George Soros and the Koch brothers we will know what is what.

Hillary is Hindenburg. And I don't mean the blimp.

bagoh20 said...

100

The whole divide in this forum is between those who just want Hillary to lose and those who just want Trump to win.

Trooper York said...

Of course the usual suspects will say this is just crazy conspiracy theories.

Keep on peddling that bullshit.

bagoh20 said...

A year ago Romney was winning polls against Obama asking who they would vote for now.

"You do realize that there is talk of the electors voting for someone else even if he wins their state. I think that is entirely possible. "

Just like the nomination was gonna be stolen. That excuse won't be viable.

Seriously:
How much would Trump have to lose by for you to accept that he just blew it? Is it even possible for you to accept a close election like every other one since Reagan blew them out of the water twice with class, discipline and conservatism?

Trooper York said...

Oh I will accept it. I will accept that the powers that be conspired to thwart the will of the people. They tried to do it all through the primary season. But now all the powers of both right and left are combined.

The nomination was not stolen even though a sincere effort was launched to do so. But now the stakes are a lot higher. I have no confidence that justice will prevail.

edutcher said...

bagoh20 said...

Up until this week's polling offensive Trump was doing pretty well.

She would be down 10-15 points against anyone who could take it to her with even a little message discipline and intelligence


And how are they heard over the media assault?

The media would be going on about Amanda Carpenter or Little Marco's foam parties.

Face it, Trump's the only one who's ever taken the fight to the Ozarks.

And, yes, they would be down 20.

A better candidate would have the press frantic right now trying to defend her rather than having a field day with his taxes, and his long history of exploitable statements, missteps, and flat out fabrications.

Oh, you mean like the One True Ted's description of himself as anointed to lead or Marco's support of the Gang of 8?

The media would be laughing themselves silly.

And Trump is the one who has the media frantic. I know you guys hate it when I bring up a rebuttal to all the Cruzzer propaganda, but I quote Ned Silver yet again

"It is imperative to create a morale boosting narrative in the liberal demographics. Our last published polling note gave liberals a “week before panic.” We must deliver on a turn-around in polls or risk collapse of enthusiasm. The data from our call / email sieve as well as legitimate polling indicates a level of despondency equivalent, roughly, to the Michael Dukakis candidacy".

What part of imperative to create a morale boosting narrative in the liberal demographics or We must deliver on a turn-around in polls or risk collapse of enthusiasm eludes you?

That's Trump's doing.

Trooper York said...

It was instructive that when Trump had a great week and was up in the polls all the doom and gloomers were absent. So now that we are in a down part of the roller coaster ride they are here telling us how we would be so much better off with some other Republican. Some other Republican who bought into all of the same old bullshit that they have been feeding us for decades. They were nowhere to be found.

I predict if Trump has a strong debate and the fickle polls flip again they will be nowhere to be found.

It is the same old song they have been singing since this whole thing started.

bagoh20 said...

You mean I didn't criticize a campaign that was winning for us? Yea, imagine how unhinged that is. But refusing to critique and suggest changes to one that's faltering is just blind. Somebody has a crush on a guy, and it's not Titus.

Even when Trump was looking strong, it was still disappointing compared to what I think a Republican should be doing against this openly corrupt, dishonest, Democrat dinosaur, but I wasn't going to piss on what's winning just because he's not my first choice. That's called reason, cool-headed judgement, open-mindedness, and keeping your eye on the prize. What it's not is blind political infatuation. Like I said above: some want to beat Hillary at any cost, and some want Trump to win at any cost. We all want the same result, but with different motivations. You never did think Trump was a douche bag. You think he's a great guy. I think he's not, but I'm willing to accept what it takes to win, and I expect my guy to do what it takes. I don't need Trump to win to be happy. I need the Dems, and especially Clinton, to lose. I hope you get what you want. I really do.

Trooper York said...

No you don't.

You want to be able to say I told you so. That was why you couldn't find it in your trick bag to say Trump was doing something right. You never do. When the polls flip again you will find something that some imaginary Republican could do better. It has been the same song since this election began.

I think Trump is a douche bag. He is your typical loudmouth boorish nasty New Yorker. That's why the peeper hates him so. I have been around that all my life. I am that guy. So I know the real deal when I see it. He is a douchebag. But he is a douchebag for America. Not for the global interests that are so frantic to destroy him.

If you really felt about Hillary the way you say you do you would be shooting at her not at her opponent. But you are the Washington Generals. You just want to put on enough of a show to pretend you don't want her to win.

I expect you to say that what ed and I had to say were just too much for you and we drove you to voting for Hillary. Or to stay home. It is the trick another blogger pulled last time around. It is nothing new. We have been here before.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

I totally concur there are forces against Trump. The establishment (both Dem and Pub) and the Media. If it is close they will steal it from him.

But what is driving me nuts is Trump throwing away his chance of winning. Sorry Troop and ed, the debate #1 and the week after was crap of mostly Trump's making. The debate was mostly a draw, but week after was an unforced error at a very bad time.

I post negative Hillary and postive Trump stuff week end and week out--but I am also objective enough to recognize when Trump is hurting himself. Pretending otherwise is not helpful to him turning it around.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

I want Trump to win. But I am fucking sick of pointing out obvious fuckups on his part and being told I am panicking or a closet Hillary supporter.

He better spend some time prepping for his next debate and kick that old bag's ass back to Chappaqua.

edutcher said...

The so-called fuckups are Lefty media talking points ginned up for propaganda purposes which some people, even though they say they're against the Lefties, still uncritically accept and parrot verbatim and without cessation even when it's shown they're wrong.

50 years ago, people still thought the media was for America the way they were in WWII, but most people have wised up since then.

As for the debate, those who blindly followed the media lead, should be happy to read Dr Crowley's latest, point of which I excerpt.

One of the biggest ironies of the first presidential debate is that Donald Trump’s reluctance to aggressively attack Hillary Clinton has now given him the license to fully do so.

Going into the debate — his debut on the world’s biggest stage — everyone, including his closest aides, was telling him that he must achieve plausibility: That is, he needed to reassure voters by looking reasonable, confident and self-possessed. If he were able to demonstrate an even temperament and basic command of the issues, voters could picture him behind the Resolute desk in the Oval Office — and Mrs. Clinton’s negative ads about his unfitness would melt away.

Mr. Trump took his marching orders seriously and pulled his punches, at one point even acknowledging his self-restraint: “I was going to say something really rough about Hillary and her family, but I told myself it was not nice. But she spent tons of money on horrible ads about me, and I’ve spent virtually nothing.”


Of course, the gullibles would be only too happy to carry the media's water.

ndspinelli said...

ed, We all agree the MSM are lying bastards. But, following moonbat right media is not the way to find the truth. Sharyll Atkisson is as straight a reporter there is. I humbly suggest you follow her on Twitter, and watch her TV show, Full Measure. She did a report on the Full Measure website about how the recent NBC poll is very skewed.

AJ Lynch said...

There are 6-7 points that Trump should be pounding home re his battle vs. Clinton.

#1 and #2 are that he is the outsider and he represents positive change for the country.

#3 is that she is incompetent, reckless with govt security and lawless - see her email handling for evidence.

#4 is the money trail to the Clinton Foundation from foreign entities who she dealt with as SOS.

And #5 to #7 are her support for the disastrous Obamacare, for the Iraq War and her belief that bigger government is the answer.

If he sticks with those he wins.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

Trump needs to persuade low information voters to close the gap.

Hillary has the benefit of having 90% of the media helping her do the same thing. Ed and Troop chiding will not change that.

If i am wrong, I will welcome both of them saying "I told you so."

edutcher said...

He has been getting massive support from Reagan Democrats in places like PA and OH.

Worrying about LIVs sounds like somebody's fighting '12's war.

nd, I linked that piece here at least twice.

bagoh20 said...

I doubt that anyone in here has as much to lose as I do from a Hillary Presidency. Her policies are aimed right at me. Small business people are the ones who pay the price most from Democrat rule, especially one like myself who employ a lot of people. Besides that, I'm diametrically opposed to virtually everything she believes, and I can say she is one of the few people I actually hate. The need in here to mischaracterize people and their motives simply because they won't treat Trump like a Teen Beat idol is disgusting, dishonest, and stupid. If you can't address an argument without lying about the few people left here who disagree, then you don't have much of value to offer, and it's been that way for months now. How many ways can you say: "I love Trump and anyone who doesn't is a traitor and a lying Hillary supporter". Besides, it's boring as fuck. If you're gonna just go there every time, what's the point of typing it all out for the hundredth time. Just type "Trump 2016". We'll get your point.

ndspinelli said...

Most of the actual Reagan Democrats are dead. My mom was one of them. Reagan got a lot of middle aged white, blue collar women like my mom. Trump is getting many blue collar white Dems but the world and demographics have changed since 1980. Reagan got virtually every Republican.

ndspinelli said...

bags, Having operated my own small biz for 30 years, I saw Republicans only slightly better. I actually think Trump MIGHT be better for small biz than even Reagan. The Bush's were fair, at best, for me.

AJ Lynch said...

I work in finance and passed the CPA exam many years ago so I think I can understand a lot of stuff. Recently I had to look at the AMT Tax form [alternative minimum tax schedule] and I felt like blowing blew my brains out because it is virtually indecipherable. Someone somewhere should be executed in public for having even a small part in creating that form.

ndspinelli said...

AJ, I'm guessing the words "flat tax" scare the hell out of you CPA's?

AJ Lynch said...

I am not a CPA Nick and I don't do taxes. Passed the exam years ago but never licensed. I favor a flat tax and simpler returns.