Friday, August 11, 2017

Back to basics......why are we in Korea in the first place?

With all this talk about nuclear exchanges and fire and fury I want to go back to the basic question,

Why are we in Korea in the first place?

Stopping Communism?

Subsidizing South Korea's unfair competition with our manufacturing base by paying for their defense?

Pouring money and lives down a rathole?

Why are hundreds of thousands of our soldiers and their dependents held hostage by their presence in South Korea?

We originally were in Korea to stop the North Korean communists from taking over South Korea. We expended vast sums of money and many lives to prevent that. Well that's over. Nobody cares about communism anymore. Witness Vietnam. Or China for that matter. They are economic partners and want sex drugs and rock and roll like everyone else. We are still living like it is 1954. Enough already. If our guys weren't there as hostages and South Korea and Japan had to stand on their own two feet I doubt that we would have to worry about North Korea.

The great and prescient Pat Buchanan puts it exactly right in an article on

Why not move U.S. forces off the peninsula, let South Korean troops replace them, sell Seoul all the modern weapons it needs, and let Seoul build its own nuclear arsenal to deter the North?
Remove any incentive for Kim to attack us, except to invite his own suicide. And tell China: Halt Kim's ICBM program, or we will help South Korea and Japan become nuclear powers like Britain and France.
Given the rising risk of our war guarantees, from the eastern Baltic to the Korean DMZ -- and the paltry rewards of the American Imperium -- we are being bled from Libya to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen -- a true America First foreign policy is going to become increasingly attractive.
President Trump was elected to put America first. To end our endless wars. To stop the Deep State and McCain and Graham all of the dick measuring that chickenhawk neocon nancy boys do that leads us into war after war after war. You ain't never gonna see Jonah Goldberg or Billy Kristol in a foxhole. Only working class kids and minorities who are in the army to make college money. The best of their generation who lives and limbs are being wasted in the squalid push for power and importance. How many fucking years have we been in Afghanistan? What did we accomplish? Squat. It is the same as it ever was. It is the same shithole since the Raj was sending out Gunga fuckin' Din and the Man Who Would be King. Enough of this bullshit.

America first. Give the Southern Gooks and the Japs the bomb and leave. Let the Chinese worry about nuclear powers in their backyard. If there was ever a country with nuclear bombs that would be a problem it is Pakistan. Why aren't we going after them?

Put America first. Bring our boys home. Don't start a war that we don't know how it will end. Don't push it until this deranged Hobbit nukes Honolulu. Enough is enough. America first.


ricpic said...

Because the Military Industrial Complex, that's why.

AllenS said...

Well, I would imagine that we are still there because the Korean war never really ended, only a truce was signed. Since the N K's crossed the 38th parallel, they have never stopped threatening S K, and us. NK was also a proxy of the USSR, and when has the USSR ever been our friend?

Fr Martin Fox said...

We are in Korea because of our commitments, which are part of being a superpower. If we no longercwant to be a superpower, then by all means, we can let our alliances unravel. We would save a lot of money...

Except the dollar will cease being the reserve currency.

And we will live in a very different world, no longer the world we currently moderate as the sole superpower.

Not a good deal in my opinion.

Leland said...

I thought the commitment was made by the U.N. You know, the same multi-national organization that signed everybody up to some treaty regarding the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. I'm not saying that was a good deal either. In fact, it sort of reminds me when the League of Nations put limits on the size and make up of national military forces. Those limits were ignored, and what happened next was costly. It seems like we've done this before, and even then, we initially decided to just stay out of whatever happened next.

Thinking about this, I have a question: if we have to repeat history, why can't we repeat the fun and enjoyable parts of history?

Trooper York said...

AllenS that was then this is now. We were protecting South Korea and trying to stop them from becoming communists. That is no longer an issue.

We can stop subsidizing the economy of South Korea by paying for their defense. This has to end sometime. Doesn't it? Or do we have to do it forever?

Trooper York said...

"We are in Korea because of our commitments, which are part of being a superpower"

Why do we have to be a superpower? Does being a superpower mean we have to be in everybody's business all the time? Are commitments made 70 years ago still something that we have to stick with when there is an entirely new world? When communism is no longer a threat. When South Korea and Japan are economic juggernauts who undercut American factories and American workers and leave the heartland in poverty.

When is enough enough. It is worth it for millions to die in a nuclear exchange just to make John McCain feel like a big deal on Meet the Press. Is it worth billions of dollars to let Jonah Goldberg feel like he has a pair of balls?

When can we start worrying about America First?

Trooper York said...

The Dollar will be stronger if we set our economy right and bring back jobs and prosperity.

A chicken in every pot. A gas guzzling car in every garage. Everyman a king.

America for Americans.

ricpic said...

South Korea has an economy capable of mounting a sufficient defense. On its own. We're there because the American Ruling Class, The Mandarins, the foreign service graduates of Harvard, Princeton and Yale, LOVE playing The Great Game, LOVE Empire. But we were founded to be a REPUBLIC. A REPUBLIC. Liberty is our birthright. This is the bedrock question in America. Always. Limited Government Liberty or Big Government Theft of Liberty. You want an Empire? You want SUPERPOWER? Goodbye Liberty. As if we don't know that liberty is already, if not gone, terribly terribly attenuated.

Trooper York said...

Russia is not our friend. It is also not always our enemy. Nations never have permanent allies. They only have permanent interests.

We should only do things that are in our naked self interest. We can split up the globe with Russia and China and have a modus vivendi that will free us to act in our self interest in our sphere of influence. The Americas.

Leave Korea to the slopes. Leave the Middle East to the camel jockeys. Leave us alone.

America first.

Trooper York said...

Daniel Shays was a personal hero of mine.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

It's good that we are still in SoKo and in Germany. Logistics.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Father Fox - bingo.

Trooper York said...


Why to fight a war?

Why do you want to fight a war?

With who?


A war in the land mass of Asia at the end of very long supply line?

For what?

Japan? South Korea? Why?

Trooper York said...

Why are we in Germany?

They hate us. They have always hated us. Merkel is our bitter enemy. Just as much as Hitler ever was. She has no problem with killing Jews. That is why she is spreading for the Muslims.

Why do we have to fight Russia to protect Merkels right to bring Terrorists to Germany?

Logistics? Bullshit.

ricpic said...

I really didn't need the mental image of Merkel spreading.

Trooper York said...

I think you have to question the premise of the post war world.

As ripic so astutely opines....the Deep State wants to perpetuate this state of war to maintain their prestige and power. They don't care how many people get killed as long as they are on TV making a buck or in a government sinecure raping the taxpayer.

President Trump was elected to turn over the moneylenders table and to drive them out of the Temple. Not to buy into the endless wars and endless superpower flexing.

Dad Bones said...

Is there any consensus among the South Koreans? The Koreans I saw in Vietnam were some gutsy, disciplined and warlike mofo's. If they're anywhere near as nationalistic as the Vietnamese they could be admiring Kim for standing up to Trump. I've read that a reunified Korea might be better economically for both the North and the South. What Kim is doing might have more to do with the South than it has to do with us.

bagoh20 said...

Being left alone is just about my highest desire, but I never get any peace or rest. Although it's the last thing I would choose for myself, many people happen to depend on me. I really hate it sometimes, but you know what? That's who I am. That's the burden of my blessings. America is the most blessed nation in history. We are more than just another nation and people. An America that would not stand up to this little tyrant with nukes capable of hitting my people is not America at all. Americans don't just close the drapes, turn off the lights, huddle in a corner and hope the bad parts of the world leave us alone. We fight, we protect, we stand, and when we stop trying to fix terrible things in our world, then the pussification of our nation will be complete. We will be a matriarchy of the pussy kind. I think everybody knows how much I hate paying high taxes, but I am just fine with spending a few billion wiping out the Kims forever. It will have to be done sooner or later. I'd prefer it before he kills any of my tribe. Some people, like mosquitoes, just need killing.

edutcher said...

We've "been in Korea" since 1871. when the Marines were sent in

Like it or not, it's a natural gateway, much like the Levant or Ireland. And we've been invested in the Pacific since Washington was President.

This insipid, crypto-Libertarian, neo-Isolationist "let's just pack up and go home because we've never been there before Pearl Harbor" nonsense denies reality.

Oh, and we did stop communism by staying in Germany, and, last I looked, maintaining outposts in Japan has kept the Commies out of the Pacific.

Except for 'Nam, we have had a few skirmishes, but nothing like a real war since then. Trump is trying to find a way out of this, but we've had 16 years of people just giving the Norks what they want and trying to walk away.

It hasn't worked. He has to make the Kims understand firing a missile at Guam is an act of wear.

AllenS said...

Come to think of it, TY, you're on to something. I keep asking, why do we still need policemen? Us common folk have enough weapons and ammo to kill all of the bad guys, so, why do we still have fucking cops?

Methadras said...

Shit, I forgot how huge Loretta Swit's head was.

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...

Bagoh - Right on.

Ed - Bingo.

ndspinelli said...

Bannon has been kicked to the curb and Trump has been schmoozed by the Generals and Deep State people.


A back door to China and Russia...

Hot Lips Houlihan (Loretta Swit). hosts this monstrous blog post

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

I suspect there is no desire for war for Trump. That is a lose lose scenario. Projecting a threat and holding Kim from doing something dangerously stupid is a win. But it is delicate situation.

Fr Martin Fox said...


As the saying goes, nature abhors a vacuum.

If the U.S. were to abrogate it's alliance with South Korea, the system of alliances that has been in place since World War II would quickly unravel. The effects are not hard to see:

- Japan has to decide either to become significantly stronger, or else accept Chinese hegemony.

- Taiwan likely gets gobbled up, with or without war.

- Vietnam, Philippines and others in the region bow to Chinese domination.

- Freedom of the seas in the South China Sea comes to an end; this vital corridor becomes Chinese.

- Australia and New Zealand have reason to doubt American commitments as well. As do the Gulf states, as does Israel.

- If we won't stand by South Korea, why would we stand by the Baltic states? There goes NATO.

End result: the U.S. is no longer the moderator of the world. Who is? What fills that vacuum?

There is no one power, so expect several to step up. China for sure; Russia would surely move into Europe, resuming it's domination of eastern Europe. Expect conflict in the east, however, between Russia and China. Expect conflict in south and southwest Asia, between India and Pakistan, Iran and the gulf states and Israel.

We've lived all this time with the threat of wars going nuclear but they haven't. Maybe they still won't, but the scenario I just sketched out seems to be one in which war is more likely, and thus nukes being used is more likely.

Oh, and by the way, I think you vastly underestimate the economic consequences of the dollar no longer being the world's reserve currency. Right now we have $20 Trillion in federal debt, quite apart from even larger liabilities in state and local pensions and other federal promises. When the dollar is the reserve currency, we can pay off debts in dollars, which we can print. But when the Chinese yuan (or whatever it is) is the reserve currency, we pay it in yuan, which we don't print.

Take a lesson from history. In 1956, UK and France teamed up with Israel to go to war in Egypt, to protect control over the Suez Canal. President Eisenhower (unwisely in my opinion) took the side of Nasser against UK, France and Israel; and to force the British to capitulate, he threatened the solvency of the British pound. And he was able to do it, why? Because the U.S. had become the superpower, with a reserve currency, in place of the UK.

So if you want the U.S. to be strong and free and prosperous, and having maximal control over its destiny, you want to maintain the present alliances. If they dissolve (which is what China-NK, Russia and Iran desperately want!), then all that goes away. And take caution: the world has never known a more benevolent hegemon than the United States. When the baton was passed from the UK to us, we were (Suez aside) pretty darn nice to the Brits and everyone else. Wanna bet how nice the next hegemon(s) will be to us when they have the whip hand?

Trooper York said...

Father the endless wars have to end sometime.China should control Asia. So what? They just get a boatload of problems.

You are just recite John McCains nonsense. It is just ego. We don't have to control everything. The fact is we can't and I don't want more kids to die to make old men feel important.

Trooper York said...

You say we can't go it alone? I say we are going it alone. What help have Germany, France, Japan and South Korea been to us. How much money do they spend? How many troops do they send?

We pay too much in blood and treasure. We always have. Now it is time to put America first.

Fr Martin Fox said...

Trooper --

I'm actually repeating what Ronald Reagan said. And, if you have been listening, President Trump has said almost exactly the same things about the importance of our alliances.

And what makes you think abandoning our alliances and letting the world be carved up by the next generation of competing hegemons will spare us war?

That sounds almost exactly like the folks who first coined the term "American First." I didn't think that was what Trump had in mind when he revived the term.

Trooper York said...

"That sounds almost exactly like the folks who first coined the term "American First." I didn't think that was what Trump had in mind when he revived the term.

That is exactly right Father. I reject the post war consensus. In fact I reject the general trend of American Foreign Policy since Woodrow Wilson.

I am in the same line as William Jennings Bryan, Robert Taft, Pat Buchanan and Steve Bannon.

I think that turning over control of Asia to China will make them weaker instead of stronger. The nationalistic yearnings of the native population will be a problem they cannot handle. Why is it a problem if China dominates Japan and South Korea?

"And what makes you think abandoning our alliances and letting the world be carved up by the next generation of competing hegemons will spare us war?"

It will spare us thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of deaths and billions of dollars. We should never had aided the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. Russia was bleeding out and we should not have intervened. That mistake brought us directly to 911.

We made it our problem and we have been there for sixteen years and have lost thousands of the best of us. For what? For child molesters and rapists who commit honor killings and sexually mutilate little girls?

Trooper York said...

Ronald Reagan was a great man and the best President of my lifetime. But he was not perfect and he made mistakes.

For example he had George Bush as his VP and campaigned for him to be President.

Plus Ronald Reagan's world is not our world of today. Communism was still a huge threat in those days. Now not so much. Russia is run by a Mafia. You can deal with a Mafia. You can't deal with ideologues.

Your foreign policy has to change and adapt to your circumstances every fifty years or so don't ya think?

Trooper York said...

If Nick is right and Bannon is on his way out then Trump is finished and he will be forced out of office before his term is over.

Bannon and the alt right and the alt right media are the only allies that President Trump has. He discards them at his peril.

Trooper York said...

I think General Kelly is only a blip on the screen and will be out in a month or two. By all accounts he is trying to stop President Trump from being President Trump. By curtailing his tweets. By managing who gets to see him. By ethnic cleansing of the staff. By which I mean getting rid of ethnics and working class people and importing more of the deep state toadies.

How long do you think that is going to last?

President Trump is on vacation now. It is the end of August. Lets see what happens after Labor Day.