I respect the issue of race and understand that many have concerns, issues and anger related to race. I'm not denying the validity of their beliefs.
However, we do need to consider the possibility that race is a blanket over a larger problem in segments of American society: a lack of values.
A lack of values for education, hard work, sobriety, discipline, marriage, parenting, religion, respect of self and others, honesty, and chastity.
Bill Cosby explains it in a video broken into three segments.
Compare two neighborhoods - one with a relatively high level of success and one with a low level of success. What is the real difference between the two neighborhoods? It's easy to say that the difference is "race" or "money" or "privilege" because those words place blame and guilt on everyone, and at the same time on no one at all.
The real problem is values, or the rather the lack of values in our struggling neighborhoods, be they populated by black, white, brown or yellow skinned people. That is truly where the difference between successful and failing neighborhoods and communities resides. The denigration of education, and of hard work. The lack of adult commitment to marriage and family. The sexualizing and thugizing of young men and young women. The absence of fathers, mothers and sometimes both in children's lives. The failure to instill understanding or right and wrong, and of responsibility in children, beginning before they are in kindergarten. The lack of proper adult role models.
Re-instill the need for values in people in struggling neighborhoods and communities, and many if not all of the problems attributed to race will be solved.
I expect this topic may engender a passionate response. Comment away, but be aware, however, that name calling and snark are not going to be tolerated.
141 comments:
That message will never be heard by those who most need to hear it because RACISM!
Great post. Compare 2 natural disasters. Katrina and the flooding of the entire Wyoming Valley from Hurricane Agnes in the 70's. There were NO DEATHS because EVERYONE evacuated as told. My girlfriend and her family spent 3 nights @ a horse track as did thousands others. People returned and their homes were covered in mud. No whining, just push up your sleeves and go to work. Agnes was the biggest financial loss for decades, I believe until Andrew hit Florida some 25 years or so later. I spent a summer helping my girlfriends family. Her dad died of a heart attack trying to clean up. I also worked on roving crews helping folks clean their houses. They were so appreciative. No looting, just hard work and gratitude for the help. Them think of Katrina.
this has been an issue since forever.
It's why the Bible, especially the Old Testament, was written.
The Lefties think they can remake the world (or, more to the point, make you think they can), but history says otherwise.
I do have to disagree with Sixty that " those who most need to hear it" will never get it. They will, but we'll have to go through what Germany did from '29 - '45 before that happens.
This is why there are Darwin Awards.
A group of people kept in slavery for hundreds of year, then the same group segregated and discriminated against, then the same group targeted by family and future destroying government programs and drug laws--all of this done by the government. And the response is, "Get better values?"
How about, "Don't trust the government?" How about, "The government has committed and enabled every sort of heinous evil against you. Watch out for the government?" How about, "The cruelty and indifference of men is nearly limitless. Limit men's power over other men?"
Yes Freeman, it is.
Compare those you describe with others who have met with success and who came from the same demographic. What do you see? Those who became successful, those who overcame, were raised in families that had values pretty much the same as your family's values.
You ignore intelligence, a large part of which is hereditary. You ignore the fact that a man with an IQ of 90 or even 95 has limited options in this high-tech America.
Are you really surprised that xx percent of the poor and the less intelligent turn to crime or welfare instead of working at MacDonalds for $7/hour?
Freeman, in your neighborhood there are mostly stable, intact families, right? And regardless of race, your neighbors value education, right? And they teach their kids to respect others, and to avoid drugs, right?
It's a subtle racism to expect that people in other neighborhoods cannot do the same.
Freem, there was a time in this country when the black family was a stronger institution than the white one.
Of course, that was in the days before LBJ and the Great Society killed that.
And, yeah, it's got less to do with slavery than the institutionalized exploitation of blacks by the Left in the past 50 years culturally, educationally, economically, and politically.
Compare those you describe with others who have met with success and who came from the same demographic. What do you see? Those who became successful, those who overcame, were raised in families that had values pretty much the same as your family's values.
These prescriptions of conservatives like yourself strike me as very, very powerful as applied to the self.
As they are applied to third parties they seem weak, unempathetic, and lacking in compassion.
rcocean - Why do you believe that people who fall into the range of normal IQ range should not work, even if the STARTING job is in a restaurant?
All work is honorable. Infantalizing people is not elevating them.
As they are applied to third parties they seem weak, unempathetic, and lacking in compassion.
How is expecting little of others compassionate? It isn't at all, in fact it's destructive.
And tell me, why do you believe it necessary to add "conservative" you your description above? Do you mean that the values I listed are not values that "liberals" hold dear?
Haz, you're starting in the middle.
Freeman, I'm starting with those who are alive.
Freeman, have you ever met people who were born and raised in horrible circumstances and then went into the military where they were taught discipline, order, respect, and self-reliance? The change in their lives is profound, regardless of their background.
And tell me, why do you believe it necessary to add "conservative" you your description above? Do you mean that the values I listed are not values that "liberals" hold dear?
Well, many of the values you extol I hold dear. So make of that whatever. I think the market's cornered on a lot of them by conservatives - not that others don't share them obviously.
The subtle racism of low expectations is an awful thing. Society is right to expect that families will be formed for the raising of children, and that those families impart value into their children.
Those who are born here arrive in America on the date of their birth. It is a horrible mistake to present them with the yoke of their ancestors as a birth gift.
@Michael.
Everything that can be said on this subject has been said.
Nobody's mind is going to change.
Values are not free floating, atomized things. You're starting in the middle, with an effect. I'm saying go back to the cause and fix it.
phx - so we are largely in agreement regarding values? Good. No one has the market cornered on values. In fact, the values we both hold dear are universal in our society, and others.
What do you see as the cause, Freeman? If it's simply racism, then your idea is weak. Compare, for example, the inverse correlation between the diminishing racism in America with the increasing lack of achievement in some minority groups.
Values are not free floating, atomized things. You're starting in the middle, with an effect. I'm saying go back to the cause and fix it.
The ten millionth repetition of that in my lifetime.
Billions poured into welfare. Forced integration. Section 8 housing in the suburbs. Pre-K. Denying people the right to freedom of association. Diversity training sucking up billions of dollars in schools and businesses.
Failure after failure in the great search for a social engineering solution, but liberals keep holding out hope that the next one will be the cure.
No, it won't be.
When it comes to race, liberals seem to be completely unwilling and unable to learn from experience.
I didn't say they were universal values Haz, I don't believe that. And I generally don't have any expectations for anyone at all, particularly people I don't know who have very different experiences than mine.
I reserve my expectations for myself, I find it's more than enough to keep me focused.
Before prescribing what others need, particularly someone I don't know, I might ask them what they think they need.
Did anyone read my first comment in this thread?
@Freeman
Yes, and?
What do you want to do about the descendants of Jews whose families were extermination in the Holocaust?
Somehow Jews succeed.
How about Filipino Americans, who come from a country that's been used as a charnel house for every empire from the Chinese to the Japanese to the U.S.?
Somehow Filipinos succeed.
So, bad things happened to blacks. Back things happened to everybody.
No, there isn't something uniquely incredibly special about the suffering of blacks. No. No.
Adults need to hold each other accountable for how children are raised. We do this via societal expectations, and where help is needed, we as a society should offer help.
We have stopped holding each other accountable, sadly. We have made it easy to avoid doing the hard work by outsourcing accountability to the government, which then substituted money for accountability.
Remember when you were young and the adults in your neighborhood knew you and knew each other? That's a form of accountability. It is lacking in many places now. We are worse for it. We dare not roll our eyes at someone who has kids by multiple men, or at a man who has fathered kids by women he did not marry.
Freeman, I read your first and subsequent comments.
In your first comment you sound like you have been brainwashed into believing that the descendants of slaves cannot be expected to overcome their history. I disagree.
I do agree that the government via it's many programs has made things worse, not better.
Now I ask you: did you read my initial topic? It is about values. You indicate in your first comment that people should not be expected to have values because of their history and governmental meddling. Again, I disagree.
Maybe I'm being snarky here, but there is something pathological about this eternal hand wringing over the fate of blacks.
Methinks they'd do better if we all stopped talking about them, ignored them, and left them to their own devices.
This constant repetition of the hand wringing can only convince blacks that their salvation resides in complaining to whites and hoping to get something in return.
Thanks everyone. Bedtime calls.
"rcocean - Why do you believe that people who fall into the range of normal IQ range should not work, even if the STARTING job is in a restaurant?"
I'm saying it would be NICE if everyone thought it so. But that's not reality. You seem to think that if anyone had the right values, worked hard and kept their nose clean, everything will be Ok.
I'm saying that's not reality. It ignores the world we live in. That USED to be reality. It used to be a man could use his back and hands and make a good living. Archie Bunker was just a "Loading platform foreman". I'm saying that world is gone.
Today a poor American faces a world where brains are rewarded and brawn isn't. Poor Americans also have to face competition from a flood of immigrants who want to word at McDonald's too.
That's why so many turn to drugs, crime, and welfare. The only way to have a significant amount of money is to steal or sell drugs. Others, simply give up and go on welfare. Why work when you can't get anywhere anyway?
"These prescriptions of conservatives like yourself strike me as very, very powerful as applied to the self.
As they are applied to third parties they seem weak, unempathetic, and lacking in compassion."
OTOH, there's claims that liberals tend to apply those prescriptions to themselves and their own families while promoting and even evangelizing against them for third parties. You know... a single mother household is just as good for children and don't you say any different...
Who is more compassionate? The one who thinks everyone is capable of making good choices, or the person who makes good choices for themselves and insists that nothing will go wrong for those who don't?
"You indicate in your first comment that people should not be expected to have values because of their history and governmental meddling."
No, I didn't.
So, Freeman, you've got the program that will finally work where hundreds of others have failed?
My experience has been that feeling bad about the plight of other people doesn't really help them.
"I'm saying it would be NICE if everyone thought it so. But that's not reality. You seem to think that if anyone had the right values, worked hard and kept their nose clean, everything will be Ok.
I'm saying that's not reality. It ignores the world we live in. That USED to be reality. It used to be a man could use his back and hands and make a good living. Archie Bunker was just a "Loading platform foreman". I'm saying that world is gone."
And that's mostly due to economic insecurity, which liberal policies do nothing to reverse. In truth, a person who uses his back and lives a careful, frugal life, will probably do well in the long hall... own a house... have a retirement... But people don't FEEL secure. They don't feel like they'll be allowed to keep what they earn, if they earn it. They don't feel like saving is worthwhile because the money they save will be devalued by the time they need it.
Security in private property is utterly vital for any sort of expectation that once something is earned it can be kept, that progress can be made, slowly but surely.
And the answer to this insecurity? Have government take more of everyone's hard earned "stuff" in order to provide a "safety net."
Oy vey.
ST, you really didn't read what I wrote, did you?
"How about, "Don't trust the government?" How about, "The government has committed and enabled every sort of heinous evil against you. Watch out for the government?" How about, "The cruelty and indifference of men is nearly limitless. Limit men's power over other men?""
All of those seem like good suggestions too.
I might add, "Everyone wants you to succeed, nearly everyone will help you succeed. Don't shoot yourself in the foot."
I think that Freeman is arguing for a small government approach.
The federal government has been trying to assimilate our black population into the mainstream since WWII. It hasn't worked yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the government's fault that the problem persists.
But they'll keep trying and libertarianism and conservatism can only slow them down. Things may change once we have a hispanic majority.
How about, "The government has committed and enabled every sort of heinous evil against you. Watch out for the government?"
I think this is the right message indeed.
Freeman, I've come back to re-read your first comment. In fairness, I may not have correctly understood what you meant. Would you mind elaborating? What I see in that paragraph is blaming government for some people's circumstances, is that what you meant?
Then your statement about values - I don't get that. It reads as though the first part happened we can't expect people to have values.
Thanks.
"It's a subtle racism..."
Not if you see this happening in different races. Then you have to look behind the context and see what's the underlying cause. Because it's not a lack of values. It's the presence of different values.
I don't find a contradiction between what Haz said and what Freeman said. It's not an either/or proposition.
"Somehow Filipinos succeed."
You've been to the Philippines. A great many don't succeed.
If you take the most ambitious from one culture and compare the to the least from another, that's an imbalance.
People who immigrate to America have a distinct ambition, they don't have any desire to live in poverty and will do whatever it takes to get out of it. So, we get the most ambitious people in America. That's atypical from any given culture or race.
Which isn't to say that "work hard and have good values" is a wrong message. The military example shows that discipline is fundamental. But just telling people that likewise doesn't work. They don't believe you. How can you craft a message that leads to people realizing for themselves they need to change? How do we take away the barrier of distrust that has been fed for generations (by Democrats who were very much and are very much a source of the continued malaise).
The Left masters the message. If you want to berate someone, tell them all they are doing wrong. If you want to help someone, find the way of leading them to a new way of thinking. Just repeating stuff ad nauseum (which both sides do), is ineffectual.
I do find it interesting that the U.S's most persistent areas of perpetual poverty are largely religion free areas, no matter the dominant race.
I think that Freeman is arguing for a small government approach.
Hopefully. I think SCOTUS is getting ready to rule one way or the other on Affirmative Action and some people are going to take it badly. It's not really helping those it set out to help -- living descendants of slaves -- and it needs to be rethought. Details at 11.
In much of the American West, the blacks are just one group comprising the "People of Color". In Cali, everyone is a minority, and blacks are just one more minority.
Are you from the West, rcocean? I think that tends to color our view. The West as a whole seems to be more egalitarian in social structure and opportunity than parts of the East and the South (at least that is the perception I've noticed talking to people from the South/East). Race isn't such a big deal in the West, because most things just aren't a big deal here in the West.
"Are you from the West, rcocean?"
Originally. And I visit quite often but now live permanently in a undisclosed middle america Red state location.
I would explain, but Paddy already did it so well.
"Somehow Filipinos succeed."
"You've been to the Philippines. A great many don't succeed."
What struck me...
Filipinos succeed when they get out of the Philippines.
Now, maybe only the ambitious get out, but I think it's more than that. The Philippines has/had a system of patronage that is so ingrained that you can't really function outside of that system and if you don't have a powerful patron you're screwed.
Or at least it seemed to me.
I've traveled all over the USA on business and noticed that people in the South and Eastern/Midwestern big cities are still stuck in the Black vs. white dynamic. They seem completely unaware that this dynamic is the past - and not the future of the USA.
I see no serious opposition to the current "open borders" and love of massive legal immigration. So Look at Cali if want to see the future of the USA.
"the Philippines has/had a system of patronage that is so ingrained that you can't really function outside of that system"
Yes, I've met several Filipinos who've told me the same thing. If you don't have the right connections, the only way to succeed is to leave.
BTW, the current Filipino population is almost 100 million. That's a hell of a lot of people for a small group of islands with no oil reserves or gold mines.
"In much of the American West, the blacks are just one group comprising the "People of Color". In Cali, everyone is a minority, and blacks are just one more minority."
A black woman I worked with in Southern California, some 20 years ago now, talked about her family coming to visit from somewhere in the South. They were somewhere or other and a white person cut in line ahead of them and she was all, hey, get to the back, you don't get to cut the line... she said that later her visitors told her they were afraid when she did it because they expected it to lead to trouble.
Now, I don't know where they were from or if their feelings were an accurate reflection of true conditions, but my coworker, at least, was amazed at the difference in attitude and took for granted that she could call a white person on bad behavior any time she wanted without worrying about it.
Maybe what everyone needs to do is to leave home. Move away from the old country... even if the "old country" is some US city or other.
A fellow I went to tech school with refused to leave the base in Biloxi because his skin was the wrong color, but he said Atlanta (where he was from) was great.
Go figure.
Bill Cosby tends to generate controversy whenever he speaks about race. He reminds me of other blacks who speak their minds without regard to censure.
He speaks to me because I owe my educational success not to my race or privilege, but rather to hard work.
Wow, so much dancing about the herd of elephants in the room. It's really rather impressive. Although someone did bump into a leg, but they pretended it was a column instead. Really, truly impressive, as I know at least two.others here know of ... No, I guess I shouldn't say it.
Yes, chick, you got a PhD in chemistry solely because of hard work. Truly amazing to see....
Oh, Icepick, I know that sounded boastful. But really -- you have no idea. So you'd better stop.
I missed this whole conversation because I was catching up on my TV viewing tonight. I saw the “Real Housewives of Atlanta” and “The Good Wife” and “The Mentalist.” But we save the fairy tale show to the end because it is usually less violent right before we go to sleep.
Tonight on “Once Upon a Time” all of the fairy tale characters were transported back to the enchanted forest. They were all getting along. Even Snow White and the Evil Queen were friends and didn’t argue or fight. But as they traveled to the palace they were under the eye of the Wicked Witch who coveted their homeland and wished them ill. So this wicked witch sent one of her flying monkeys to attack them. This monkey drew blood from one of the characters and flew back to give it to the wicked witch to cast a spell to control them. It will continue next week.
Beware the flying monkeys. Just sayn’
Black folk didn't listen to the message of Malcolm X. Get educated, work hard, stay drug and alcohol free, start your own businesses. Don't take the money the govt. gives you, it's another form of slavery. That was the most powerful message ever and he was killed for preachin' it.
I'd recommend to all young men with IQs of 90-95 that they not pursue a life of crime. If you're only marginally qualified for a job at McDonalds, your criminal activities are more likely to make you an inmate than a syndicate kingpin........I grew up in a housing project. It was a different era, but lots of kids figured out that a life of crime was not a winning bet. A philosopher has observed that man has free will and every so often he gets a chance to use it. People who are well fed and well housed make better decisions than those who are otherwise situated..... I don't know if the problem is as bad as people here make out. Crime rates are actually decreasing. Maybe things are getting better.
So are people here surprised that a group of people whose families were torn apart at auctions to improve the sales and merchandising appeal of each one doesn't have a strong tradition of intact families? Are they surprised about the single-parenthood of people who weren't allowed to wed, but rather selectively bred as if they were horses and/or generally subject to the rape and other abuses of the people owning them?
Family life on America's plantations, the homes of 90% of African Americans for most of their history here, was non-existent. The "achievers" were killed. To discourage organization and insurrection, the capacity for literacy was typically punishable by death.
But we've got the social Darwinist/anti-evolutionist crowd here wondering where the bootstraps went. Geniuses.
The only thing I need young black males to do is to pull up their fucking pants. And to stop making statements against "the man" by defiantly jaywalking against red lights. And help me get retarded politicians to stop promoting mass incarceration for trifling vice crimes as if it were a sensible social policy for anyone other than the corrupt prison-industrial complex.
Other than that whatever they want to do for themselves or not is their own business.
"Beware the flying monkeys. Just sayn’"
"Flying monkeys" can be worse than wicked witches - who after all, can be liquidated.
Or so I've read, in the old texts.
Ritmo, you should read Thomas Sowell's or Daniel Patrick Moynihan's writings about black families' stability pre 1960.
Black families were in fact very stable, more so than white families at the time.
@R&B: Are "slavery deniers" here? The question is, what are we to do at this point in time?
Come forward. State the solution (as some asked Freeman Hunt).
A lot of "stability" pre-1960 was a phony stability. Revolutionary Road was a great expose on how important the veneer of happiness was, and how corrosive that was to people's psychology. If everyone was doing things just for show, no one could understand what was necessary for their own flourishing.
The history of African Americans is a sad one. So is the history of Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and even...wait for it...
English Americans!
One branch of my family - English - left Jolly Old England and lived in a sod hut on the Great American Plains. And that was a step up in life! Its only until the 1930s that they had electricity.
Sad dat. When are reparations coming my way?
Why? Because it would augur well for conservative/Republican electoral politics?
No, because it's true. It's the reason I, and many other people, are libertarians or libertarian-ishes.
How about, "The government has committed and enabled every sort of heinous evil against you. Watch out for the government?"
I think this is the right message indeed.
Why? Because, if it worked, it would augur well for conservative/Republican electoral politics?
How about caring about what's right for people regardless of what it does for one's ideology? If you don't then you're just doing what you claim Democrats do: Using people for political gain.
Every person and group of people in this country has interests and rights that stand wholly separately from how those things could be channelled into someone else's political goals.
Lem asked if he could re-post my blog post here. I didn't ask to have it posted.
No, because it's true. It's the reason I, and many other people, are libertarians or libertarian-ishes.
Who have happened to marry any chance of political success with a certain political party's projects…
"Because it's true" just means it makes sense to you.
The comments are out of order now. Oh well.
The question is, what are we to do at this point in time?
I don't know. But I know that the impulse to be paternalistic about it will only go so far. African-Americans are, after all, Americans. They don't like other people imposing solutions on them, even if they're just conservative suggestions.
Come forward. State the solution (as some asked Freeman Hunt).
I wouldn't presume to know that for someone else, or for their culture. That's why blacks at least respect where my vote goes and why they marry theirs to that same priority: Not being judgmental.
Again, only two things bug me: Pants down and defiant jaywalking. I'm sure there are other habits that you could criticize as not being ripe for making success, but there are too damn many paths to success in this country for me to give them one simple prescription and say, "Here you go!" I wouldn't dream of being that presumptuous.
No, I just later re-stated one that was a bit more strident initially. I don't think I removed the part that you responded to, though. Apologies. I understand your desire to keep the flow sensible.
"Because it's true," means that I think it is objectively true. I think that the history of the world clearly illustrates that one should beware the government's power. Power corrupts. That's the motivation behind being a libertarian. If I didn't think it were true, I wouldn't be a libertarian.
I already stated my solution. Quit preaching at people to have better values, own that what happened to people was horrendous and has lasting effects, own that it's unfair, and point out that faith in the government, an agent of oppression, is misplaced.
Come on Freeman, give me more credit for my respect of your intelligence and argumentation skills. I assume everything you say is something you believe to be true. I assume you believe what you believe to be true through calm reasoning.
I also assume you realize the fallibility of human reasoning and the problem everyone faces of inherently limited perspective.
As for the rest of your ideology, you're stating it in terms general enough for no one to really disagree with anyway. But I think people here are more interested in specific "solutions" (if they were to exist in policy).
I think the conservatives have a point, I just wonder how overly idealistic or over-simplified it is.
In the meantime, my biggest policy complaint is mass incarceration for vice crime. That's not doing anything to keep families together. And on that anyway we probably already agree.
It might just end up being a more important policy prescription than any of Bill Cosby's lecturing - which don't need any government approval anyway.
Ritmo, the vice crime was part of my original comment here. That's clearly unjust. So, we do agree there.
Also, vouchers. How dare a government, especially one with our government's history, order that people must stay in its system of schools, especially those schools that are miserably failing.
My issue with what you were saying was your characterization of me as a team player in politics. "This is my team, so I'll do whatever to support them." That's not how I feel about politics. But perhaps that's not what you meant.
own that what happened to people was horrendous and has lasting effects, own that it's unfair,
Haven't we as a society done this many times? We truly have.
I think we probably agree on both policies, Freeman. I'm open to expanding vouchers/charters, so if people are optimistic for what that might do for inner-city urban black youth (or whomever else, so much the better).
Apologies if you perceived that I meant to impugn how you would approach politics in response to your ideological feelings. My response was a response to quoted statements by Paddy (whom I also respect but) in whom I recognize the likelihood of different ideological or political sympathies… i.e. likely more intentionally conservative. And that wouldn't have set me off had it not been for my reading of what he said regarding "message", which I perceived as being politically opportunistic. Although in his defense, I can see now that he might not have meant it that way, and I was possibly over-reacting to the over-use of the idea of "messaging" as a key to political success, esp. as stated outright by many key GOP operatives.
Jews seemed to have recovered from the Holocaust nicely. And, that was almost 100 years AFTER slavery.
"The Lord helps them who help themselves" is what my wise mother would often say.
Really, there is no reason not to have shared values, is there? Truthfulness, courage, non-violence, self-reliance, respect for life, etc. are universal values.
Haz, no, we don't own it when we moralize without even mentioning it. And those shared values aren't shared among whites. Look at the rate of white divorce. These are society wide problems not limited by race.
Ritmo, I think we understand each other now.
Yeah, but Jews had a long history (3000+ years) of being a highly literate/educated society, of dealing with many diverse peoples among whom they lived and who ruled them, of dealing with previous persecution and of coming out of an episode that, no matter how devastating in terms of life lost, was quite brief - 12 years. Its resolution also involved a clear moral consensus on the part of the civilized world, which was so heavily invested in that resolution as to be unavoidable in terms of what they felt free to do next. There wasn't the kind of recriminations that Southern politicians immediately visited upon freed slaves, and the foundation of a new country of their own gave them a project into which they could at long last channel quite a few energies and ambitions.
African slaves were one of the only groups brought here against their will, were not used to a literate history, were prevented from having one over several generations of persecution, and had no comfort of packing up their bags and starting anew in a country openly dedicated to channeling any nation-building ambitions (except Liberia, which is mercilessly smaller than the room needed by America's blacks. And any funds/infrastructure for resettlement was comparatively insubstantial).
And then, there was the added pain in the ass of contending with a country still allowing for segregation, Jim Crow and a population whose worse half was still dedicated to oppression of some sort while trying to regain its "pride".
So I think the comparison is interesting, but obviously falls short in several ways.
Ritmo, As you know, it was forbidden for slaves to read, but they did. After slavery ended black folk were voracious readers and writers. The migration north, before and after WW2, to escape Jim Crow, took a toll. Rural folks were thrust into the big city. Dem politicians "bamboozled" them as Malcolm X would often say. They lost their family values, love of reading, etc. Jim Crow and big cities in the north did more to hurt black folk than slavery. And we discussed previously what party is responsible for both of those, and still are enslaving black folk.
Again with the implications that parties don't change even though voters still respond to the fact that they do. You love the Republicans of 1865 and I suppose now but pretend that progressive Teddy Roosevelt, sculpted onto Mount Rushmore and everything, didn't exist and didn't bring progressive priorities into American politics for Democrats to take over. Blacks first started voting for them when FDR, another pretty important American president whom you don't mention, took the unprecedented step of hiring blacks in his white house staff. Calvin Coolidge didn't do that. Herbert Hoover didn't do that. Even U.S. Grant didn't do that. I guess it was taboo. But let's call Democrats racist and refuse to recognize what made their constituencies - by allowing them to feel like they could first be treated as humans.
But let's pretend that FDR didn't do anything, that JFK's stand to keep the schools open, that LBJ's corralling of CRA votes didn't happen. Republican good Democrat bad is the message, and can only be explained by condescending to blacks about how they misunderstand their own interests - while wondering why they don't politically reward such condescension.
You can choose whichever parts of history to selectively laud all you want. But that's self-serving and doesn't explain how the current reality came to be.
Ritmo, I tried following your train of thought but I ran out of bread crumbs. I explained clearly and logically how black folk went from readers to non readers. What I didn't include was the self loathing and self destructive inner city culture where reading and being smart was "Being white." To her credit, Flotus speaks often about this in very personal terms. Hell Ritmo, the KKK couldn't have devised a more sinister plan to have blacks self destruct. "Bein' smart is bein' white." WTF, that is on black folk..NOBODY else.
I think the examples of self-destruction in life, where no other external factors are ever at play, are rare. And I'll bet you so does the woman you refer to as FLOTUS.
Just because you can't follow my points doesn't mean they were invalid.
I think your refusal to recognize other points is something I can look past, but that your intended audience will reject as still being just presumptuous and/or possibly condescending enough to not trust. And I wouldn't argue with them for that.
I mention without further comment that Faulkner observed that people who were once private property are apt to have mixed feelings about this idea of the sanctity of private property........A scar can be more disfiguring and spirit sapping than the wound that caused it, but everything fades with time. I repeat my earlier comment that not every black young man in America is destined for perdition. People have free will, and it is not predetermined that they will chose badly. In point of fact, many things are getting better.
Freeman said:
Also, vouchers. How dare a government, especially one with our government's history, order that people must stay in its system of schools, especially those schools that are miserably failing.
This.
The left agree with you up until you begin to suggest that their forced government solutions are in doubt.
Republicans vs. Dumbocrats. Who gives a shit?
r&b = Whatever you say, I don't care. Just don't blame the Democrats for anything.
Thank you.
Did you know that liberals are the greatest people ever, and right about everything?
I didn't know that either, till R&B told me so.
But let's pretend that FDR didn't do anything, that JFK's stand to keep the schools open, that LBJ's corralling of CRA votes didn't happen. Republican good Democrat bad is the message, and can only be explained by condescending to blacks about how they misunderstand their own interests - while wondering why they don't politically reward such condescension.
I like Ike.
Ritmo, There's a Freudian slip in your second paragraph. But, to be fair, maybe just the late hour.
After the Wicked Witch was vanquished Dorothy turned to her friends and admonished them to stop their nonsense and pull themselves by their boot straps. She told them to stop lolling around in their Section Eight Housing in the Enchanted Forest singing and dancing and playing basketball. She told them that if the looked inside themselves they would find that they had the brains, heart and courage to be a success in life. So they took on her values and lived happily ever after.
Alas that was not to be for Dorothy. She could not go back to staid and boring Kansas after the glories of Oz. She moved to Hollywood where she married several different homosexuals. They tortured and abused her to the point where she became an alcoholic and drug addict. To the point where she died while choking on her own vomit. Which proves one thing.
Gay marriages never work.
But that is a tale for another time.
Thank goodness her daughter did not make those same mistakes.
And those shared values aren't shared among whites.
I believe that Haz covered that in his post.
The real problem is values, or the rather the lack of values in our struggling neighborhoods, be they populated by black, white, brown or yellow skinned people. That is truly where the difference between successful and failing neighborhoods and communities resides.
There wasn't the kind of recriminations that Southern politicians immediately visited upon freed slaves, and the foundation of a new country of their own gave them a project into which they could at long last channel quite a few energies and ambitions.
Well R&B, there's quite a bit of animosity towards Israel these days. Is that what you were alluding to?
Dorothy's daughter did make some of the same mistakes but thankfully she managed to see her way through to live to a ripe old age. In fact if you have seen a recent photo of her she seems over ripe.
So much so that mean lesbians delight in mocking her.
Gay people are not gay. They are nasty.
But that is a tale for another time.
Having learned not to post controversial topics lest arguments break out, I posted something today about bunnies.
It got three comments.
DBQ - Thank you. I was wondering if anyone would see that and add it back to the conversation.
I love it people don't read what I've written and want to argue about it.
@Haz: You just took a major step towards being a scientist: hypothesis, experiment, data, conclusions.
Haz I put something on your bunny post to get you some more comments.
Let the squealing and sputtering commence.
"Having learned not to post controversial topics lest arguments break out..."
I would hope you wouldn't hold hard and fast to this statement, as to my mind it is the arguments (even R&B's) where I either learn something, have to consider my own thoughts/values and/or otherwise reflect upon my views. Anyone can post about bunnies.
DBQ - Thank you. I was wondering if anyone would see that and add it back to the conversation.
I love it people don't read what I've written and want to argue about it.
If you're talking about the importance of values generally with no regard to race, how are you providing a coherent response to what the man said about racial issues? Also, you've made a lot of assumptions in this thread about my background. I've seen whites who have horrible values do just fine economically because they're insulated from their choices by money or connections. That's why is comes off as callous to tell poor people who have no money or connections that they just need to get better values. You have to start somewhere else.
And I see the snark rule is selective.
Men tend to understand tough love better than women. Unlike most people here, I socialize w/ black folk. I had a lotta black people @ my wedding. I vacation w/ black people[some will be here next week]. I tire of the enablers, black and white, as do my friends.
That's why is comes off as callous to tell poor people who have no money or connections that they just need to get better values
Values are not monetary things you buy or that only wealthy people can own.
Poor people can have exactly the same values as rich people. In fact, having those values is one of the best ways to get out of the cycle of poverty.
Freeman Hunt said...I've seen whites who have horrible values do just fine economically because they're insulated from their choices by money or connections. That's why is comes off as callous to tell poor people who have no money or connections that they just need to get better values. You have to start somewhere else.
And I've seen whites who have horrible values do poorly economically because they're aping prior bad monetary choices.
How much bad hillbilly do have in you?
That's why is comes off as callous to tell poor white people who have no money or connections that there's a racial angle. You have to start somewhere else.
When Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were sitting around in the bullpen of Timely Comics they were batting around some ideas of the superpowers they were going to give Captain America. He was going to stand for what was right about America as he fought the forces of Fascism and intolerance with was now termed old fashioned patriotism and traditional American Values. They didn't have him get exposed to gama rays or get bitten by a radioactive spider. He didn't come from outer space or another world. He wasn't a god from Norse mythology or a rich playboy playing at being a superhero. They had to come up with something to set him apart.
Now they considered a couple of things. They were going to make him invisible but nobody liked Ralph Ellison and he would be too pale for that. They were going to go with a mantle of self-righteousness but they thought everyone would not believe it because how could someone who stood for traditional All-American values be considered self-righteous. They were going to give him magic bracelets but that was too girly so they gave them to Wonder Woman. Finally they just decided to give him a shield. A shield he could yield in defense of American Values while wise cracking and fighting the forces of evil wherever he might find them.
Captain America. A true American Hero. Someone with values that we can all admire and emulate.
Children no longer get their values from heroes that they learn about on TV or the movies or comic books. Their values do not come from Captain America or Lucas McCain or the Lone Ranger or George Washington or Jackie Robinson or Horatio Alger. They are old news to be mocked and laughed at.
The new heroes being pushed by the media conglomerates are anti-heroes and nihilist's like Hannibal Lecter or the drunken philander ad man Don Draper or some meth dealer in his underwear. That who is celebrated and wins awards. Our culture has come to reject what is good and decent in our society and celebrated the likes of Dexter and his ilk.
That is a very important contributing factor to the decline of values in all communities. You can reach a lot more people through entertainment than you can by preaching at them.
"They are old news to be mocked and laughed at."
Well, I'll give you the rest, but Captain America has a new movie coming out in a few weeks.
With the Falcon!
The movie that is coming out will be interesting. It is based on the "Winter Soldier" series. In this series Bucky comes back from the dead as a Communist assassin.
I wonder if the film will follow this arch. It remains to be seen.
Yes much like another superhero Nick Spinelli....Captain America worked with a black partner who was not just a side kick but a friend and colleague. Captain America did not condescend and make excuses for his black compatriot. He gave him a job fighting crime and upholding All American values.
On the other hand Sam Wilson did not sit on his ass and ask for handouts and demand reparations. You see this is a comic book. Just sayn'
@Freeman Hunt:
Here's where we agree: Public schools should be replaced by vouchers allowing parents to purchase their children's educations at the schools of the parents' choice. A smaller, less intrusive government is better than a larger, overly-controlling government. Minor offenses for "vice" offenses (I presume you mean drug possession) don't merit prison time. I absolutely agree with you on these things.
Here's where we disagree (correct me if I'm wrong about what you believe): I believe everyone born in America has an equal opportunity to become educated, employed and succeed to the maximum of each individual's native ability, through parental and individual initiative. I think you believe the historical remnants of slavery negate or impede that opportunity.
I believe that it is important to teach young people the values that will help them escape poverty, specifically: graduate from high school, and trade school or college, get a job and a place of your own before you become a parent. Stay married. Don't quit your job until you have a better job. Don't commit crimes. Don't join a gang. Learn to read, write and speak business English. Work hard. Respect yourself and others. Don't use illegal drugs. I would hope that yo are in agreement with these, bu I don't know for sure.
As regards this: That's why is comes off as callous to tell poor people who have no money or connections that they just need to get better values. You have to start somewhere else, I believe we disagree. Values are free of cost; then just need to be taught to children by adults who want those children to work their way to a better life. And tough love is seldom callous.
I think you can be anti-enabling and also sympathetic and opposed to selective history denial. These approaches need not be mutually exclusive.
Some of you may recall me going pretty hard against Crack in this space just a few weeks back. It's not an approach I'd have taken in the past, but I do think everything has its limits. If there are limits to "tough love" just as there are to sympathy. There's a limit to the the meaning of reading into history just as there are limits to the utility of how much of it is worth denying or writing off. Everything has its limits. There are limits to how annoying you can choose to find a hip-hop demeanor just as there are limits to where a reliance on Ebonics will get you in life.
To everything there is a limit and a time for every purpose under heaven.
At the risk of re-hashing another thing, why are so many of you quick to write off what Freeman raises regarding connections? Connections mean a lot in life. It's really naive, I would think, to pretend that connections can't make up for a lot of lost talent, hard work or luck - the other variables in determining success. If connections meant nothing don't you think Linked-In and resume references would be less important?
It leaves me a bit jaw agape to exist in a society where Kim Kardashian and Kevin Federline gain the household names and notoriety they have and watch people say that connections are over-rated. You've got to be kidding me. And what do you think Hillary Clinton's political recognition and capital would have been without a certain connection?
Come on. Be real.
Which name means more to you: Nancy Reagan or Anne Frances Robbins? Jacqueline Bouvier or Jackie Kennedy Onassis?
Seriously, connections account for nothing in life? How can one even believe such a thing?
R&B - Why do you believe others lack connections?
Okay, I'll turn that around. The last business I operated before retiring was a company that transported about 8,000 inner city kids twice each school day. I had 185 employees, mostly inner city people, mostly black.
They were very well networked. Almost without exception I could mention a business and they knew who owned it and someone who worked there. By the nature of their hyper-extended families, they had far better connections that I or others like me had. In fact, connections were how most of them came to my company seeking jobs.
I'll also mention that when the business started, we had to interview nearly 1,000 people in order to find 185 who (1) had a valid driver's license, (2) could pass a drug screen, and (3)didn't have a criminal record that was clear of violent or abusive crime in the past five years.
Ritmo, Connections indeed do count. But, it is not exclusively white. It has more to do w/ education. If you go to an Ivy League school, no matter your color, you make connections. You go to a Big Ten School, you make less stratospheric connections, but connections none the less. It's about education. When you have a culture that sees education, reading, being smart, as "being white" then it is self destructive. I played football against a kid named Doug Jackson in high school. He went to Columbia and played football. The team never won but he made great connections and is doing a helluva lot better than I. I'm PROUD of Doug and feel not an ounce of resentment. Doug came from a middle class family that valued education.
I'm not sure what you mean by others. I just think it uncontroversial to believe black youths have had a longer time gaining the number of connections with successful people that the average white person has had. On average, historically.
But your last paragraph sounds like quite an obstacle. I'd say if I were in your position you'd be right to react the way you do to results like that.
When you have a culture that sees education, reading, being smart, as "being white" then it is self destructive.
No disagreement there.
I don't think it's wrong to point out how egregious the role of self-perpetuated ignorance and uneducable mindsets among people who hold to such a stupid attitude. They rather deserve to have that pointed out to them quite starkly - like anyone else on the internets does these days.
why are so many of you quick to write off what Freeman raises regarding connections?
Perhaps because the topic was about COMMUNITIES, neighborhoods and cultural values. Not just individual people. Not the topic at hand. To try to derail the conversation into specific instances of individuals who may or may not have connections misses entirely the point that it is a community and culture of values that make the difference. Trying to make the exception proves the rule is annoying. I always dismiss people who miss the point and attempt to derail the conversation.
Do people who have personal 'connections' have advantages? Sure. Duh. Do you make connections with people who do NOT share your values? Not very likely.
R&B - Interesting points. I'll concede that black kids don't have as many successful role models or others in their communities with whom they can connect. The other side of that, though, is the governmental mandates that employers seek out and hire black employees, especially if the employer has government-related work contracts.
In my other businesses, we were required to have employment advertising records showing we allocated a mandated portion of our budget and efforts toward media that served minority areas. Government requirement. That serves in some way as a connection.
Tech school and college job fairs, by the way aggressively seek out women and minority attendees.
In the business I described in a previous comment, after we hired the 185 people we needed, we lost some 20% in the first two months due to arrest, showing up late of simple job abandonment. Hiring and training became nearly a full time position just to keep our employee level constant.
And the jobs I was providing paid a starting hourly rate about twice the minimum wage, with guaranteed 1, 2 and 3 year increases. And we offered a health insurance, 401(k), life insurance program. And optional legal and disability insurance.
We also had a path for increased responsibility and compensation for those who wanted it. It required one year of service, no offenses, and not more than six unexcused absences over twelve months. The (few) people who took advantage of that program elevated themselves to jobs that paid $35,000 to $40,000 annually, for people who had a GED and good work ethic.
I used the word "connections" because that was the word used by Freeman, who raised the concept, and to which others attempted to (unsuccessfully, in my mind) respond. "Community" is a related but different concept, for which there are only 3 instances of its use in this thread, as opposed to 28, by now, of "connections".
Do you make connections with people who do NOT share your values? Not very likely.
Lol. Again with the celebrity examples I cited. And Facebook. You should listen to Shouting Thomas drone on about all the liberals he "connects" with on Facebook.
That's just how things work. Many non-ideological connections are made for all sorts of reasons, and always have been. That's just the way of the world. And "communities" will always have less resonance in a country as mobile and transient as America. That's just how things are. It's nothing particular to blacks. We simply have a less settled, more mobile existence.
Again with the celebrity examples I cited
Again with the specificity of individuals and outliers beyond the norm when the discussion is about sociological phenomenon of groups, cultures and communities.
Sure....if you have segregated sections of communities and isolated ethnic groups, you will have less mobility. Blacks only dealing with blacks. Limited networking or connections opportunities are going to be presented. Hmong with Hmong etc. Insular communities who are not able to, or just don't want to, 'connect' with other communities. You can't bitch about not having something you have shut yourself off from.
You say that America is a mobile and transient culture. Well, perhaps that was true; but I postulate that it isn't so much anymore. Urban communities tend to stay that way. Inner city LA Hispanics are out of their element and unable to translate into other venues without great difficulty.
What USED to be common to most American's, whether they be native born or immigrant was an acceptance of general values. Most of which Haz has listed several times.
I don't mean to say that people are stuck, doomed to poverty or stasis. However, the insularity and divergence in the false name of diversity is one of the woes of our society.
The melting pot theory is being discouraged in the name of separatism and diversity. I am not advocating that people give UP their cultural ethnic values, but rather that those values (pride in their origins) that are common to humanity should be encouraged. Again. Those values that are common world wide and that have been proven to improve society.
"I wonder if the film will follow this arch"
Same actor that played Bucky in the first movie. And the Marvel movies have been pretty good about keeping to the source material, for the most part. Especially the Marvel produced ones in the Avengers characters.
I'm more of a Thor guy myself, but that goes without saying.
"The melting pot theory is being discouraged in the name of separatism and diversity."
This is a huge issue. And one that has generally been used by the privileged to keep divisions going.
They orient society around blame. Blame this, blame that, blame this person. As long as a person, or a group, are in the cycle of blame, they seek resolution, restitution.
When it doesn't come, the blame festers, as conditions persist. This is what Arafat mastered with Palestinians.
As long as you are being defined by the actions or responses of another it's a trap, self imposed slavery. That's why forgiveness is freedom. It's letting go the festering wound, and moving on. It strikes against pride, even against a sense of justice, but that's not the most important thing.
As long as you are being defined by the actions or responses of another it's a trap, self imposed slavery. That's why forgiveness is freedom. It's letting go the festering wound, and moving on. It strikes against pride, even against a sense of justice, but that's not the most important thing.
This is true. I believe it takes incredible discipline, a real state of advancement. I can't bring myself to be judgmental with those who can't do that. And I still believe it's one of the most worthwhile efforts for a human.
"I can't bring myself to be judgmental with those who can't do that."
Me neither. That's why I'm sort of on both sides of these discussions. (I think Freeman is in the same place).
"...generally been used by the privileged to keep divisions going."
"They orient society around blame."
I'm making the assumption that the privileged are also "they".
So they are?
I may be wrong, of course.
"This is what Arafat mastered with Palestinians."
Yes, grievance. He was a master at such.
"That's why forgiveness is freedom."
That works both ways, as I know you know. So far it is very one sided, as I never saw much from Arafat in that respect
My larger point is that even if we work out our issues, which is doubtful, there are still another six billion beings out there needing to accept our solutions, our values, for our vision to become common. A great number have, but a much greater number have not, and likely never will.
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