Regarding public safety... the mayor gets it wrong on several levels — as did US District Court Judge Shira Scheindlin in her original ruling (the latter so egregiously arrived at that an appeals court subsequently removed her from the case).Pulled from a NY Post Opinion piece. Click "Read more" to watch the new NYC mayor in action.
Stop-and-frisk is a shorthand identifier for a remarkably successful strategy that matched police resources to high-violent-crime city neighborhoods. “You got crime, you got cops” might have been a better way to put it — and the results speak for themselves. New York, once wracked by violent crime, is now the safest big city in America.
This meant nothing to Scheindlin, and it clearly means nothing to de Blasio. While it is statistically undeniable that virtually all violent crime in the city is committed by young African-American or Hispanic males — most often against other African-Americans or Hispanics — they say that it is racist to concentrate police attention in such a way.
This was the thrust of the discredited judge’s ruling, and it informs the city’s new policies, according to de Blasio.
Monday, February 3, 2014
The de Blassio Diaries: “Our young people of color are our future leaders . . . and we need to respect them as such,”
"All summer long, then-candidate Bill de Blasio pulled no punches in his opposition to aggressive policing — in particular, to stop-and-frisk — and so the principal question going into his mayoralty was this: When it comes to public safety, did he believe his own rhetoric?..."
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"The churn of New York City’s population, with its heavy influx of youngsters and immigrants, means little institutional memory of what the city was like under its last liberal Democrat, David Dinkins, who was (just barely) edged out of office in 1993 after the city’s annual murder total surpassed 2,000 under his stewardship and subsided to a level barely under that.
Now, with murders down to about 300 a year, New Yorkers have evidently decided that the crime wave is over and it’s time to get lax about mayhem and disorder."
Forbes op/ed 2013
We just got the very first film to show something, even close, to what slavery was, but you talk of " little institutional memory" for history?
Really, Lem, by hanging out with whites, with so " little institutional memory", you shame yourself,...
Presently, there are no institutions of slavery to... slavery was abolished.
I'm not following you.
You want a movie to have an effect on public policy?
I'm not following you.
That's because you, too, have "little institutional memory" - it only goes back, like 20 years - to when Democrats ran New York. Why did that happen, Lem? Where is this push coming from?
Reconstruction was a significant chapter in the history of civil rights in the United States, but most historians consider it a failure because whites re-established their supremacy over the African-American population. Historian Eric Foner argues, "What remains certain is that Reconstruction failed, and that for blacks its failure was a disaster whose magnitude cannot be obscured by the genuine accomplishments that did endure."
Why doesn't your memory go to the "disaster" whites have left others to live with and fight against?
You probably also buy that MLK was a Republican bullshit. Why would they say that, Lem?
Oh yeah - to neutralize King's true message.
You reside with liars, Lem, and when you stop lying, too - they'll abandon you, as well.
Just like they killed King.
You want a movie to have an effect on public policy?
Hillary says Youtube movies work Africans up into homicidal rages.
@Lem: To my ear, Crack is motivated here by envy of some sort. It's pretty ugly.
"Pretty ugly" -- I like the juxtaposition.
Why doesn't your memory go to the "disaster" whites have left others to live with and fight against?
You are going back on a lot of history that could be interpreted by people pushing an agenda.
But, for what is worth I will say that every generation should be held mostly responsible for what they do.
It would be unfair to hold the Germans of today, for example, to still carry the burden of what their ancestors did... I hold to be true as a general principle.
Should you be held responsible for the sins of your father?
Crack, I just mean here you sound amazingly like one of the anonymous commenters who trolls your blog.
You wouldn't troll your own blog...just to gin up page views...would you?
This thread is about a legitimate court tested policy that is said to have reduced crime in the city.
Crime affects people to a much greater extent than their feeling of "respect" do.
To my mind, high crime is a betrayal of respect, it is the ultimately disrespect that we knowingly abandon ways and means of keeping people safe.
How can anything be "reconstructed" by going back to the days when people were not safe.
2000 murders a year is not a small trivial thing.
If anything I should accuse de Blassio of wanting people of color to die. Because that is exactly what his policies will consequence.
How does it even make sense?
In the name of you feeling "respected" I will consign you to greater probabilities of harm, mayhem and death.
Come to think of it, that's what a racist would do.
A higher murder rate would mean that some of those killed, probably a high percentage, would include people who might otherwise end up in jail, being housed and fed by the taxpayer. Taxpayer Money that would otherwise go to the mayor's favorite 'universal pre-k.'
Lem,
You are going back on a lot of history that could be interpreted by people pushing an agenda.
Easy to say, if you don't include the King letter. If you do include it, you have to admit the only ones "pushing an agenda" are the folks lying on King.
It would be unfair to hold the Germans of today, for example, to still carry the burden of what their ancestors did... I hold to be true as a general principle.
Good for you - you've decided to see reality differently - you do know that's called "madness", right?
Did MLK voice that opinion, too, or is that more of the philosophy I showed you he warned against - and that Republicans now hide behind because the sheets don't work?
Lem, I dare you to find a single speech - one - where King says to do what you're advocating,...
chickenlittle said...
Crack, I just mean here you sound amazingly like one of the anonymous commenters who trolls your blog.
You wouldn't troll your own blog...just to gin up page views...would you?
You are like the craziest conspiracy theorist I know right now - do I strike you as a guy watching his page views?
Totally insane.
Which, being insane, you'll totally ignore:
Another white mad man, roaming free when he should be getting help,...
Lem said...
This thread is about a legitimate court tested policy that is said to have reduced crime in the city.
And here it is in action - what's wrong with you?
Ben Franklin said trading freedom for safety means you get neither - which IS how it works:
You oppress people, don't give them jobs, etc. - they steal from you.
And - most importantly - because of race, you forget those are AMERICANS freedoms you're so blithely throwing away for your precious numbers:
People are not numbers, Lem.
Unless you're a Nazi,...
"Lem, I dare you to find a single speech - one - where King says to do what you're advocating,..."
I put up a King quote... it doesn't make me a King expert.
We've got to respect those blacks and hispanics to death.
Literally.
Do the math.
10,000 black and hispanic men, at the minimum, are still alive because of stop and frisk.
Lem said...
"Lem, I dare you to find a single speech - one - where King says to do what you're advocating,..."
I put up a King quote... it doesn't make me a King expert.
I agree - but when faced with facts a reasonable person changes his mind.
The Germans (who you mentioned) don't think only those who committed the Holocaust were guilty.
Germany itself was - just as America is.
Germany stays wary of their Nazi inclinations.
America tries to hide it's own.
And THAT'S what you're defending.
Shouting Thomas said...
We've got to respect those blacks and hispanics to death.
Literally.
Do the math.
125 million blacks are dead because of America.
You probably respect that, too,...
And here it is in action - what's wrong with you?
That kid did what he had to do to provoke the incident.
Or - as you're all trying to do - make it seem respectable,..
Lem said...
And here it is in action - what's wrong with you?
That kid did what he had to do to provoke the incident.
And you're evidence for that is?
You're a fucking idiot, Crack.
I'm advocating for "stop and frisk" because it has been shown to work.
I mean that, Crack.
You're just a raving, fucking idiot.
You'd do yourself a favor if you'd shut the fuck up and find a way to improve your life.
But, you're too fucking lazy.
"He must've done something" is an excuse straight out of Jim Crow lynchings.
But you wouldn't know that, not being an expert on MLK (while twisting his words to insult blacks) or Reconstruction, or anything lease these racists have YOU - a minority - fighting against.
You're like a Jewish Nazi,..
There isn't much point in debating with a raving, fucking idiot.
Which is why I won't waste my time debating with you, Crack.
You're just a demented, raving, fucking idiot.
Shouting Thomas said...
There isn't much point in debating with a raving, fucking idiot.
Funny - that's why I ignore you.
It's in the video, when the officer is interviewing the kid.
The cop said the kid did certain things. Why would he wear a wire and not have a recording?
If you are going to wear a wire you might do things to ensure a recording.
Crack, go find some help.
Get some counseling. Develop some relationships with people.
Get a job.
I've been through this with, literally, hundreds of fucking raving idiots in Woodstock, all of whom get stuck in some idiot crusade.
You need something to do, and I don't mean this idiot crusade over something or other.
Lem said...
I'm advocating for "stop and frisk" because it has been shown to work.
Fascism stops crime, too - let's go, right?
Jesus, Lem, you're not even fun to beat up - you got no accurate info, no skills, you throw out unsupported conjecture as fact, and hang with people who encourage you to attack your own kind.
That's just,…sad.
"He must've done something" is an excuse straight out of Jim Crow lynchings.
You are equating stop and frisk with lynching?
What about the 2000 murders, that stop and frisk helped reduce?
Lem said...
It's in the video, when the officer is interviewing the kid.
The cop said the kid did certain things. Why would he wear a wire and not have a recording?
If you are going to wear a wire you might do things to ensure a recording.
He didn't "wear a wire" - he's got a digital recording device - I have several.
And the cops said they stopped him because he was a mutt.
That's just,…sad.
Am I sad that I'm not aggrieved by the country that has given me an opportunity?
No. I'm not sad.
Lem said...
"He must've done something" is an excuse straight out of Jim Crow lynchings.
You are equating stop and frisk with lynching?
What about the 2000 murders, that stop and frisk helped reduce?
And once the Nazis moved in the Germans where safe.
What about the Jews, Lem?
Lem said...
That's just,…sad.
Am I sad that I'm not aggrieved by the country that has given me an opportunity?
At the expense of other's?
Pure Nazi.
Here - since you're not an MLK "expert":
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
He didn't "wear a wire" - he's got a digital recording device - I have several.
That's what we have here Crack. Selective interpretations.
By going back to reconstruction you seek to enhance your grievance buffet.
LEM,
I've dealt with a ton of this shit in Woodstock.
You cannot talk sense with some raving fucking moron with a plan to fix everything.
You're wasting your time.
You'd have more hope conversing with my 8 month old granddaughter. And, she hasn't yet spoken her first word.
At the expense of other's?
I didn't know you were for a zero immigration policy. That's a rare advocacy.
And once the Nazis moved in the Germans where safe.
To equate the NYC police with Nazis is just crazy.
When you get into this kind of discussion with a person who suffers from the problems Crack has, all you do is buy into his confused idea that the entire world has to be fixed in his image before life can be worth living.
It's all a negative.
Those of use who are sane know that they world isn't going to be remade for us, and that we must learn to be happy within the world as it is.
Now, I've got to go because my granddaughter wants to play with my iPad.
Lem,
That's what we have here Crack. Selective interpretations.
No we don't - you're making things up out of whole cloth.
You admit you don't understand MLK, but you want to tell me about him and claim - this is golden - you're defending his ideals by going AGAINST his work. You even call the civil rights movement a "grievance buffet":
That shows your respect for KIng's work better than anything else.
And the difference between what you're saying and what the KKK said is what, again, Mr. I'm not an expert?
Not much,...
Lem said...
At the expense of other's?
I didn't know you were for a zero immigration policy. That's a rare advocacy.
I never said anything of the kind - don't interpret - stick to MY words.
What this thread needs is a stop & fisk policy.
I need to get some shopping and errands done.
Lem said...
And once the Nazis moved in the Germans where safe.
To equate the NYC police with Nazis is just crazy.
Tell that to the blacks shot 50 times, or the guy who got the plunger up the butt, or,…mutts.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
I thought that was Neocon, not en vogue.
Tell that to the blacks shot 50 times, or the guy who got the plunger up the butt, or,…mutts.
To advocate perfect policing is admirable. but unrealistic. Police are human beings full of flaws just like everybody else. To expect them to do a perfect job may be a requirement but how realistic is it to expect it?
They aren't angels.
NYC has a review board. people can file complaints against them. which btw, the kid in the video you posted did.
The city has made efforts to ameliorate overly aggressive policing.
What else can they do?
Lem said...
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
I thought that was Neocon, not en vogue.
Nope - Pure MLK - from his letter from a Birmingham jail.
Isn't it wild?
Not a single person who is on KIng's side agrees with you, Lem.
But you let the racists, on the other side, convince you it's the right thing to do - without any evidence to back it up.
They even told you MLK quotes were Neocon inventions - incredible!
Pretty sinister shit, there.
And they're playing you for a fool,...
Police are human beings full of flaws just like everybody else.
So you, Mr. Everybody else, could do those things to innocent people?
I never said anything of the kind - don't interpret - stick to MY words.
I said that I'm gratefull for the opportunities this country has afforded me and you said "At the expense of other's?"
that's what you said.
innocent people?
It's that from a new age book you are secretly reading?
You even call the civil rights movement a "grievance buffet":
You are the one misinterpreting my words.
de Blasio is not just a committed socialist. He is a committed communist. He in fact is a Sandinista.
He is going to use NYC as a petri dish for discredited ultra-liberal policy that has failed in the last hundred years.
He is going back to the laissez-faire method of law enforcement practiced under Dinkins where the criminal element is allowed to "vent" their frustrations to the point that Jews were killed in the street just because they were Jews. The "knock-out" games and the riots at places like Kings Plaza are just the opening salvos of what is on the way.
Then there is the matter of taxation. He campaigned on a promise to raise taxes on the "rich" to pay for pre-k for all children in NY. Well the governor said there was money in the budget to pay for it and NYC didn't have to raise taxes. The mayor doesn't care. He won't accept what he wants for free. You see what he wants is not pre-k. He wants to raise taxes on the "rich." To punish them. That is what he is about.
Winter is here.
When Andrew Cuomo is more reasonable than you are then you are really fucked up.
Not a single person who is on KIng's side agrees with you, Lem.
Now you are drafting phantom persons to buttress the beliefs of a person I told you already I know very little about.
I didn't take you for a messiah periah.
Nope - Pure MLK - from his letter from a Birmingham jail.
I could quote from the letters apostle John wrote from jail... but how is that going to protect an "innocent people" walking home from work or school?
The baby decided I could have the iPad again, so I thought I'd interject a bit of happiness into this misery.
The baby learned to wave "bye bye" today, on her 8 month-a-versary.
You can't imagine how happy she is about her newfound ability to communicate.
She's been bye bye-ing me for hours. And, laughing her ass off.
Lem,
Now you are drafting phantom persons to buttress the beliefs of a person I told you already I know very little about.
Wow - you know all the racist tactics by heart:
Is John Lewis a phantom person, Lem? He marched with King and is against stop-and-frisk.
Don't forget:
You're the evidence-free, non-expert here.
There is nothing in this world that I have experienced that is more wonderful than a laughing baby grandchild.
Thank you, God.
Lem said...
Nope - Pure MLK - from his letter from a Birmingham jail.
I could quote from the letters apostle John wrote from jail... but how is that going to protect an "innocent people" walking home from work or school?
Another racist tactic - ignore the issue you just lost in debate and change the subject to another issue you don't understand well.
Anything but saying you're wrong.
And the difference between what you're saying and what the KKK said is what, again, Mr. I'm not an expert?
KKK? I read about him in the NYT wanting t buy up a town in Idaho somewhere. and I see him on day time TV, put on by black hosts.
not that there is anything wrong with that... I suppose.
Wow - you know all the racist tactics by heart:
I don't claim to know what's on people hearts Crack. I don't even claim to know what is in yours.
Is John Lewis a phantom person, Lem? He marched with King and is against stop-and-frisk.
John Lewis is a politician.
Lem said...
Is John Lewis a phantom person, Lem? He marched with King and is against stop-and-frisk.
John Lewis is a politician.
And one of MLK's best friends.
But you know better about what MLK wanted than him.
Riiiight.
And once the Nazis moved in the Germans where safe.
The Nazis didn't want to make everyone safe; they wanted to impose their idea of the right order of society on everyone and would kill anyone standing in their way.
Stop-and-frisk may be overdone, but the motivation behind it truly is to make the streets safe. And I think that someone like Ray Kelly, the former police commissioner, is sincere in his belief that "stop-and-frisk protects, rather than oppresses, the African-American community."
In a worth-a-read New Yorker article on the background and practice of stop-and-frisk, Kelly is quoted further as saying:
“African-Americans, who represent twenty-three per cent of the city’s population, made up sixty-four per cent of the murder victims and seventy-one per cent of the shooting victims in this city last year.” He added, “African-American men between the ages of sixteen and thirty-seven, who are just four per cent of the city’s population, comprise forty per cent of those murdered citywide; eighty-two per cent of these young men were killed with a firearm. As a city, as a society, we cannot stand idly by in the face of these facts.”
John Lewis is a politician.
politicians do and say what they believe gets them elected.
Ah, another thread derailed by Crack.
I think you should take up a heroin habit Crackie, maybe then you could be talented like Philip Seymour Hoffman was.
Too soon?
MLK has a holyday name after him. You don't get a holiday by having no friends.
Fix yourself, Crack.
You've got enough to do there. You aren't going to fix the world.
Even if you were to prove to us that you are 100% a genius with all the answers...
That isn't going to do a damned thing in terms of fixing your life.
Get some counseling, find a father figure, develop relationships, get a job.
Fix yourself, chump.
Do you hear me, Crack?
I wish that I could hold you like a baby and give you what you didn't get for months or years on end, or whatever in the fuck it is you need.
But, I can't.
None of us can.
You're going to have to fix yourself.
Lydia this is the internet. Please don't try to confuse us by citing facts. Facts have no place on the internet or in the administration of Bill de Blasio.
Only feelings. Respect. Tolerance. Inclusiveness.
NO FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what MLK wanted than him.
What about what you want Crack?
Why is it that on the one hand you hammer away at people looking up to religion, but on the other hand you seemed wedded to the cultish personalities of MLK, Malcolm X, John Lewis... don't you have your own thoughts and ideas?
Why hide behind the people that aren't around to speck for themselves?
President-Mom-Jeans said...
Ah, another thread derailed by Crack.
I think you should take up a heroin habit Crackie, maybe then you could be talented like Philip Seymour Hoffman was.
Too soon?
No - you repeated the same joke on my site already.
Or it was another racist.
I can't tell:
White people all look alike.
Lem said...
John Lewis is a politician.
politicians do and say what they believe gets them elected.
Wow - real bottom-of-the-barrel shit:
You are willing to strip him of over 50 years of civil rights work - at supposedly your blog hero's side - to defend a point you've already admitted you don't understand and that goes AGAINST what they worked for.
Incredible.
If I didn't know America was a racist country, I wouldn't believe it.
Pardon:
A racist country where no one doing anything racist are racists.
I think that's it.
Lem said...
MLK has a holyday name after him. You don't get a holiday by having no friends.
No - you get it after they kill you and feel guilty.
You really aren't an MLK expert, guy,...
You're a coward, Crack. You're afraid to face the hard work of fixing yourself. You're doing everything you can to avoid the real work of fixing what is really screwing you up.
My late wife suffered through childhood trauma that made your suffering look like a day at the beach. She was gang raped as a child and left for dead, literally, in the gutter. Treated like a throw away piece of garbage.
The men who literally enslaved her were determined that she would never be anything except a slave and a prostitute.
She made something out of her life. She found help. She found a way out of the life of self-destruction that her tormenters wanted to inflict on her. She stopped trying to change the whole universe and focused on fixing herself.
She had a lot more courage and wisdom than you.
Take a hint. Fix yourself. Forget about the grand overview of the entire world. You aren't going to do anything about that.
Crack, there are people who can help you.
You can start here.
You are an expert at forcing people to give up on you and abandon you.
You are doing that again, right here and now.
Stop now.
Lem said...
what MLK wanted than him.
What about what you want Crack?
Why is it that on the one hand you hammer away at people looking up to religion, but on the other hand you seemed wedded to the cultish personalities of MLK, Malcolm X, John Lewis... don't you have your own thoughts and ideas?
Why hide behind the people that aren't around to speck for themselves?
Because - unlike you - they stood up for me.
And - again - you're racistly trying to change the subject.
They also stood up for you - in the buffet.
You choose to shit on them for their efforts.
These people asre turning you into a monster.
The suffering you've endured can be fixed, Crack.
But, you are the one who has to do it.
Fix yourself.
Forget this idiot shit about fixing the world.
What you are doing here, Crack, is what the abuse you suffered taught you to do.
That is to make people hate you and abandon you.
Stop now. Shut the fuck up. Find a way to bring your mind to peace.
Try prayer, if you know how.
No - you get it after they kill you and feel guilty.
And since MLK cant enjoy the fruit of his labors... what better way to honor him than to put that guilt to use at every opportunity... or something.
Crack, the only real skill you have is alienating people and making them hate and abandon you.
The torment you suffered taught you to do this.
This crap you are doing here is your problem.
Stop now. Silence your brain. Quit formulating a response.
Pray. I'll point you to some places where you can learn how to pray, if you need it.
Because - unlike you - they stood up for me.
On the cross?
Oh Crackie, I don't bother frequenting your site, but thanks for the "all white people who disagree with me or think I am untalented are alike" sentiments.
But seriously, I think you should start doing heroin.
And - again - you're racistly trying to change the subject.
I admit you know more about racism than me.
They also stood up for you - in the buffet.
You choose to shit on them for their efforts.
I choose not to represent the views colored by their generation on a par with this generation in which I'm a part of.
Render onto Cesar and move on... I don't live in the past.
These people asre turning you into a monster.
By these people I take it you mean contributors and commenters here.
I don't attribute to others things that may on the surface appear inconvenient.
I assume for the most part that my words are my own.
of which I'm a part of.
Lem said...
No - you get it after they kill you and feel guilty.
And since MLK cant enjoy the fruit of his labors... what better way to honor him than to put that guilt to use at every opportunity... or something.
What do you think King was doing, that we celebrate, moron?
Lem said...
They also stood up for you - in the buffet.
You choose to shit on them for their efforts.
I choose not to represent the views colored by their generation on a par with this generation in which I'm a part of.
YOU choose?
How convenient.
So, if I kill your parents and take everything you own, and then my kid comes and laughs in your face, it's all good?
Great plan, Lem
Why didn't MLK think of that?
Lem said...
And - again - you're racistly trying to change the subject.
I admit you know more about racism than me.
But only not if I say you're doing it?
Brilliant logic again.
Lem,
I assume for the most part that my words are my own.
But that's a wrong assumption. You're repeating racist dogma, word for word.
If I was a daytime talk show host I suppose I would be all up to date on this. But, I'm not.
I'm not even into that form of entertainment.
So, if I kill your parents and take everything you own, and then my kid comes and laughs in your face, it's all good?
I take it you are for reparations then. I was not aware of that until now.
Lem,
I take it you are for reparations then. I was not aware of that until now.
You are not going to answer a direct question, directly, for the rest of this dialogue, are you?
Changing the subject, ignoring the facts, denial - and even re-writing history - those are all you've got to work with, apparently.
But you're not being a racist.
I'm not sure how that works - since I just described the racist's tool kit - but I'm sure you'll utilize one of the above mentioned strategies and avoid dealing with the truth on that as well.
Watching you punk yourself is NOT pretty,...
But that's a wrong assumption. You're repeating racist dogma, word for word.
The assumption that my words are not my own, derive from the assumption that English is not my own language, to the extent that any language can be said to be ones own.
Corinthians
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
So, if I kill your parents and take everything you own, and then my kid comes and laughs in your face, it's all good?
I answered a hypothetical with another hypothetical.
For someone who wants to handcuff cops you sure look up to rules.
Lem you are a good man but you have to give up here. There is no hope for even a meaningful dialogue.
Time to wish the best for him and to move on to something productive.
Like discussing the AL East for 2014.
Changing the subject, ignoring the facts, denial - and even re-writing history - those are all you've got to work with, apparently.
Yes, because I'm not going around looking to confront cops trying to do their job.
Actually I got to shovel the sidewalks, now that the snow still light.
No matter what you say the schvartze will contradict you. It's called "Stickin' it to The Man." But paradoxically, wherever thou go to escape the schvartze he'll follow you loudly complaining that honkie you are responsible for his misery and yet, and yet the schvartze can't live without proximity to you, the hated honkie. Riddle me that?
Frickin' machine changed you to thou. I kid you not.
@Lem,
Crack needs somebody to talk with today. Sometimes, people just have to talk.
You're doing the best you can. Nothing is going to get resolved, and maybe that's not the point.
Bless you for trying.
Lem,
I answered a hypothetical with another hypothetical.
Which was no answer at all.
Lem,
I'm not going around looking to confront cops trying to do their job.
3 of my high school buddies are now cops - what are you going to say now?
Even though I know more about racism, MLK - and cops - you know more than I do?
Jello brain.
there are 38 million blacks in this country - and 228 million whites:
Where can we go to get away from you?
You guys are stupid and silly,...
@Crack,
You know, I'm one hell of a big, tough independent guy, and I thought I could handle most anything.
My wife's death damn near took me out.
It was more than I could bear on my own. I found guidance and help. That was the only way I could make it.
You don't have to be the world's toughest guy. You don't have to have the answer to all the world's problems. Nobody is expecting that from you.
Lighten up on yourself and allow yourself to be a mere, fragile human like the rest of us.
You're taking too much on yourself. We all hurt and break, and at some point, it is just too much for every man jack of us.
I'm glad I hit your tip jar, Lem. Despite many people jumping in and trying to change the discussion, you took on the discussion with Crack. I'm not sure if it changed anything with him, but it was respectful and educational. Thanks.
"respectful and educational"
Really? You must not have read a Crack thread before.
@rcocean
Yeah, it's always the same thing.
Then again, I've been playing guitar with Big Joe for almost ten years, and I've heard every story he has to tell at least two dozen times.
Doesn't stop Big Joe from telling his stories all over again.
We still get along. Sometimes, I can even do the story in unison with him. I can even anticipate the wording. I think he practices his stories.
Really?
rocean, do you think Lem was disrespectful? Note, I'm asking you, and not Crack or what Crack thought. What do you think about how Lem handled Crack in this thread?
Lem handled Crack very respectfully. How did Crack respond? Was he respectful or does he call for violence against people he disagrees with? What do you think about that Leland?
Lem did a great job as usual. I envy his patience and even handedness. He is truly a good guy.
Even though he is a moron for rooting for the Red Sox.
@Trooper
I'm guessing you're one of those guys with a well rehearsed pocketful of stories, too, right?
How long does it take you to cycle through them?
Have we heard them all yet?
"What do you think about how Lem handled Crack in this thread?"
It was respectful but not educational - if like me you've read Crack before.
As I stated elsewhere, Crack's responses are canned and bear no relationship to what Lem & others are really saying - its like Obama talking to Bill O'reilly.
But others seem to find it so. Maybe I'm wrong.
Okay. Lem handled Crack as I'd never seen anyone do so before. Yes, Crack's answers are like a Turin loop. You will always get some variation on a theme, and there are many times he refuses to address point-blank questions. There is always one more complaint to register.
It is Berne's Games People Play. The game of 'why don't you/yes but.' is the the game where you have a discussion with someone with a problem, and it doesn't matter what advice or offers of help or possible solutions are given, the reply is alway 'yes, but that won't work because...'
yes,but
Since Crack designated me the chief "conspiracist" (note the word imbedded there), let me throw this out: Crack's game here isn't to reason or to convince or to make friends: the whole shtick is to get someone -- anyone -- to say something that they'd regret saying later. He is deliberately trying to get under people's skin here. Inga has the same MO.
"Crack's game here isn't to reason or to convince..."
He never drops down to a reasoning, conversational tone.
rocean/Trooper, are you guys confusing my comment with regards to Lem as comments about Crack?
No Leland I am not. I am just saying that Lem is way too nice.
Shouting...not even close. I got a million of them.
Excuse me, that was shroud of turin loop.
@ deborah, As long as you're dropping Berne into the game and linking to the "yes, but" wiki explanation, it wouldn't do to miss The Racket, a bit further down the page, which also covers the situation.
A racket is the dual strategy of getting "permitted feelings," while covering up feelings which we truly feel, but which we regard as being "not allowed". More technically, a racket feeling is "a familiar set of emotions, learned and enhanced during childhood, experienced in many different stress situations, and maladaptive as an adult means of problem solving".
A racket is then a set of behaviours which originate from the childhood script rather than in here-and-now full Adult thinking, which (1) are employed as a way to manipulate the environment to match the script rather than to actually solve the problem, and (2) whose covert goal is not so much to solve the problem, as to experience these racket feelings and feel internally justified in experiencing them.
Absolutely correct, MamaM.
I wonder if this might be applicable also:
"[Dry] Drunk" or "Alcoholic"[edit]
Another example of Berne's approach was his identification of the game of "Drunk" or "Alcoholic." As he explained it, the transactional object of the drunk, aside from the personal pleasure obtained by drinking, could be seen as being to set up a situation where the Child can be severely scolded not only by the internal parent but by any parental figures in the immediate environment who are interested enough to oblige. The pattern is shown to be similar to that in the non-alcoholic game "Schlemiel," in which mess-making attracts attention and is a pleasure-giving way for White to lead up to the crux, which is obtaining forgiveness by Black [the granting of African American legitimacy by the white community]."
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