Tuesday, October 8, 2013
The Answer Is Y
My great great grandfather on my father's side helped found a small town in rural Wisconsin. He and his sixteen brothers and sisters came west by way of Pennsylvania, and before that--in 1751--from territory in what is now southwestern Germany. He enlisted in the Union Army and was gone three years, during which time three of his oldest children died of diphtheria (2 boys and a little girl). I even know their names because I saw their little gravestones in a family graveyard near the town he helped settle.
I wonder if he killed during his time in that war? Others in my dad's family--an uncle--killed men in later wars. All were taciturn.
Is it possible that half of me has endured, largely unaltered since that time in 1861-65? How much of my great great grandfather am I?
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38 comments:
You have two parents, four grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great great grandparents.
So about 1/16th.
Wait a minute. Are you talking YDNA?
Y
I did some similar looking, found the ancestor who fought in the Continental Army (and possibly 2 more), one who served in the War of 1812 (died of disease), and 2 who served in the Union Army.
But I think I take after my mother's side.
I wonder if he killed ...? Others in my dad's family...killed men... How much of my great great grandfather am I?
You'll never know until you give it a try.
When I was a little kid, my father had a Walther P38 from WWII. He told me he got it from one of my uncles who fought in the European theatre and took it off of some German.
The two side plates on the hand grip were made from bakelite (or some brittle plastic like that) and part of one of them was broken off, down at the bottom. My father suggested it had been broken over someone's head.
I later learned that I had no uncle who fought in the European theatre. The next step was to surmise that the side plate had gotten broken because someone dropped it which rendered it relatively uncollectable.
Grownups shouldn't lie to little kids and many of them never do.
At least never about the things that really matter, . . . whatever those are.
1/16th would be an average. If the great great grandfather is down the patrilineal line, the Y chromosome would be largely his. (Mutations will have probably occurred in the time, if I understand correctly.)
By the time you get back that far, it is possible to not have any of a given great great grandparent's genetics, save for the patrilineal Y in the case of direct male descent, or mitochondrial DNA from direct matrilineal descent.
Icepick, that's not correct. I have had my DNA tested and I now have about 1,700 cousins. I can trace one part of my family back to 1525 England.
I had my YDNA tested with Family Tree. That's only father to son, with no women genetics involved. Not going to take the time to look it up, but none of those men who are my YDNA relatives has the same last name as mine. Checking further, some of them are related to me more than 1,000 years ago. A time when people didn't have last names.
For that matter, it is possible to have a grand parent who has little if any genetic input into a grandchild. Rhazib Khan over a Gene Expression did a genetic sequencing on his new child, and found that one of the grand-parents had much less genetic input into his daughter than the other three. (It was about 16% IIRC, but I'm too lazy to look it up.) He wondered about whether or not he should tell the grandparents about this or not.
Consequently, of course, one of the other grandparents had a proportionally greater genetic input into the child than the others. So when people think some child is much more like some other person in the family than others, there may well be genetic reasons for that.
Note that a child is pretty much guaranteed to have 50% of its non-mitochondrial DNA from each parent. Going back in time, however, the percentages are only guesses.
Note too that this could have an impact on marriages between relatives. It is possible for siblings to be more genetically diverse than cousins, although that's a real crap shot. and I wouldn't bet on it.
That depends, did your great great grandfather say "Pass the NaCl" at the dinner table?
Is this a trick question? I love puzzles.
As I was traveling to St. Ives...
Not a trick question, John.
By the time you get back that far, it is possible to not have any of a given great great grandparent's genetics, save for the patrilineal Y in the case of direct male descent, or mitochondrial DNA from direct matrilineal descent.
I'm not interested at the moment in maternal DNA and I'm assuming direct male Y chromosomal lineage (no cuckolding). The question is really how much Y chromosome stays intact and how fast does it dilute out.
Somebody like ritmo could probably answer this off the top of his head.
It is all very well and good to track but your data relies of people telling the truth so it fails right off. Your ancestors lied. Up and down, through and through, and all over the place. The family truths held so dear as sacrosanct are lies, not all of them, of course, but important ones, like one of your own sisters has a different father but for appearances that is not mentioned but there it is in your chart and everything behind that point for her researchers is flat dead wrong. Rather, it reads what it should be had her mother not fucked around. That is another family truth held dear, mother is a saint, you bastard, shut up. See? The possibility is admitted.
Your ancestors lied.
It might be possible to show that genetically.
What town?
Also, I'm playing fast and loose by calling the Y chromosome "half" of my DNA. Yet it is a distinguishing characteristic.
What else beside sex chromosomes are carried in Y chromosomes?
I'm a chemist, Jim* not a damn geneticist!
___________________
*James T. Kirk
My grandparents are from Wisconsin, my parents are from WI. I was even born in WI - but I was not raised in WI.
Are you able to reveal the town?
I need to find out if my great-grand parents are from WI.
I don't think so. .
So about 1/16th.
pollo is running against Scott Walker?
Spread the word...
Scott Walker is a rino.
Oh, noes! Scott Walker is 1/16th of something!
Oh noes, Scott Walker is one of Allen's 1700 cousins!
Icepick, that is how I remember from biology. IIRC, when the chromosomes zip back together after the egg and sperm unite, any combination is possible...one embryo could contain 95% of father and 5% of mother. It makes you wonder with families that all look like one parent. How powerful the father's genes must be in those cases. Or just against that particular mom's genes?
I love Rhazib.
Chick, do you think of yourself as taciturn?
Scott Walker isn't one of my cousins. Where in the hell did you come up with that?
@April & Spinelli: I'd be happy to talk to you offline.
@deborah: sorry to take so long getting back to you.
Yes
@deborah: Does that mean I have my mom's lady part genes but they remain unexpressed?
Deborah knows.
I have a cousin with blonde hair and blue eyes. He married a girl with blonde hair and blue eyes. They have a son with chocolate brown hair and brown eyes who looks nothing like either one.
The wife has that coloring in her family.
(or perhaps it was the mailman)
Chick, now, I don't think so, but maybe Ritmo will stop by and set us straight.
April, I found this, apparently it can happen rarely:
http://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children
I always thought I was Irish. Lately I found out my DNA was German. Recently I found out the British resettled a bunch of Germans in Ireland in the 1700s, I must be one of them.
ken, lots of Germans were leaving in the 1700's to avoid conscription. If you lived in Northwest Germany you fought for the Prussians; elsewhere you fought against them. We may be related to German draft dodgers.
The English were in that mix somehow via royalty but I'm not well read on that.
btw - I've updated my user profile to include e-mail.
Just curious Pollo - It's fascinating that you have ancestry that helped found a town in WI.
(no biggie if you don't want to share, I totally understand!)
Interesting, Deborah. Thanks.
April: it's just that I have an aunt who did all the genealogy work and she's very sensitive about putting family stuff out on the webs.
Then don't.
I 100% respect her privacy.
I don't know anything about my family beyond my grandparents. I believed that many of them survived the famine years by cannibalism and didn't want to talk about hard times when they got to America. They wanted to forget Europe and become American. We should respect the wisdom of our forefathers.
Genealogies collapse. There were not sixteen times more people on the earth one hundred years ago. Prior to the invention of the auto, most people married someone who lived within walking distance. They courted their first and second cousins. That's probably why some ethnic groups look sort of alike. There's a family resemblance...... If any of your foremothers were halfway attractive, there's a good chance she was raped by someone in the great house, so perhaps we' all have some nobility in the family tree.
William: Yet there was great influx of new genes in America and greater mixing as a result. Did you see that presentation a few weeks back of "typical" womens' faces from different counties? North America was left out because the researchers didn't think that Americans had a typical phenotype -- no typical looking American woman. The rapid influx of Latinos is quickly changing the look of Californians.
I wonder if the Danes, who are lauded for their mobility, are also known for fast changing genetic variability.
Hybrid vigor. They say that when you mix two strains, it's the hardiest characteristics that survive. Up until they balloon up and get diabetes, Americans are very healthy.
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