Tuesday, January 19, 2016

The Real Tragedy In Flint*

Every Democrat in the country is calling for Gov. Snyder’s head and blaming it on the Republican governor and his emergency financial manager law. And not only are they ignoring the guys in the black hats who actually caused the problem, they’re really ignoring the victims. Worse, they’re using them as a tool to gain a political advantage. And that’s [an] even larger tragedy.
That’s not what Flint’s children need right now. People need to focus on them, and not on their hatred of all things Republican. Read the whole thing
That is from the best piece yet that I've read about the Flint tragedy. It's still a little early for the science and technical journals like Chemical & Engineering News to have weighed in. I did wade into the comments over there at the link, trying to correct an over-zealous commenter regarding the oxidation states of lead. 

*h/t: Ron on Twitter

67 comments:

chickelit said...

In the comments:

I remember when GM used to build cars in Flint and you couldn’t drink the water in Mexico. link

Love the discussion!

Methadras said...

No one is blaming democrats who built the water system to begin with. Anyone ever been to Flint. It's a dump. All democrats know how to do is use crises to their advantage and the Governor is most likely going to roll for them. What a chump.

Chip Ahoy said...

Republicans are sent to check the crazy. They failed. It's why they're despised. And the other reason they're despised from the pov of the crazies is they're always checking their fun. It's a paradox of dual failure.

Who cares who they blame as long as they get their water fixed, a basic function of local government.

It's why I say, move already. You must.

And stop rattling my chain with your self inflected problems, I'm off thinking about more pleasant things, less dire than your mess. Like kids. And their doings.

I knew the kids would rush to interpret "Stitches" #2 on Amazon Prime music. It's just their sort of sappy thing that picks up and repeats a lot. The word "stitches" will present a problem. Nowadays they staple so kids will tend to prefer that sort of thing over sewing pantomime sewing would be too old fashioned. But I had no idea there would be so many videos. That is surprising. 32 and I stopped counting, but many are the same names with different versions and tutorials. I notice the girls all attempt to be cute. I could not bear any of their versions all the way through. Too much "look at me, aren't I cute?" Too much hair and affectation. There is one high school dude sitting on a fence or something with a schoolyard or something behind him who presents the whole thing in the most clipped abbreviated direct version of them all. His sign for "kisses" looks like "home" and his sign for "stitches" looks like scar or clawed but other than that I must say excellent. The music from the phone on his knee prevents over dramatization anyway, the sound so weak that his on point signs really do help. But none of the others do. They prefer making faddish heart sign and breaking their hearts melodramatically, their "before" is unclear while their "past" is overemphasized, while the lad has all that contained and presents his signs clearly and with NO emphasis on himself, humbly, not one single trace of attention whoring ersatz entertainment, just straight interpretation.

bagoh20 said...

"...an over-zealous commenter regarding the oxidation states of lead.
"


I hate when that happens, and I run into that argument almost every day. And don't get me started on the alchemists who I have to argue with at the urinal day in and day out.

bagoh20 said...

I don't know what happened, but if the mayor was responsible through direct action or lack of it, he should resign. Water is job one. That said, it's clearly political, and it won't work because it's obvious and nobody outside of MI gives a shit.

Also, it's only Republicans who really take responsibility and resign when they fail, and that difference should be maintained, honored, and shown to people every chance they get. Vote for a Republican and get accountability.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I don't understand how the public was not informed of the chemical(s) in the water. Does Michigan have a different system? Our water districts, in California, are required to do an annual analysis of the water and send the results out to each subscriber. If lead was in the water it has to be disclosed annually. So either they were not doing tests or were hiding the results from the public. Probably because they don't have the money to replace the aging and rotten infrastructure. Bad....

People who have the district water supply get an annual statement showing the composition of the water and levels of minerals and other substances. It is actually quite interesting. This is how we know that the water from the water district is quite high in magnesium and calcium as well as some other minerals and has a complete lack of some other minerals and substances. The water comes from a deep deep well and is supplied.....we think from an aquifer where the water feeding it is quite old. There are no atomic markers in the water at all....meaning pre atomic age sourcing for the water....or so we have been told...(chicklit can comment on this). The community water is completely untreated in anyway...no chlorine or any added substances.

The upside is that the minerals in the water are actually good for our health...and tastes great!

Our personal well, likewise, is from (we think)the same aquifer and we have had it tested for minerals, potability (e coli, coliform bacteria) as well as nitrates. Negative on those last two. Plus the water from our well is very very cold. Even in summer the water from the well head is too cold to put your hands into without getting pained.

bagoh20 said...

A few EPA heads should roll too, including the chief. They knew about it for 6 months, and let the citizens drink it up anyway. According to Hillary, that was because the citizens weren't white or rich enough. Could be. I bet if water quality was the responsibility of a private company, this would not have happened, because people get fired for screwing up, and only then would Democrats rightly demand it. Or we could put everything in the hands of Republicans so that Democrats would give a shit. They hate Republicans and private companies much more than they care about citizens of any color or class.

bagoh20 said...

The EPA head says they did their job. I know what she means, but even at hiding shit she screwed up eventually.

People screwed up top to bottom, but the Democrats only care about going after one guy. What is it about that guy that makes him so much worse than the rest? Hmmmmm, what could it be?

Leland said...

It's why I say, move already.

According to one commenter over there, you're the problem. You left them, turned your back on them, and then this happened.

I thought about asking what the person did for a living. Did they study hard in school to get an education and later a career that would enable them to solve problems like this? If so, what was their title?

Leland said...

DBQ, according to the link, Michigan has standards, but actually did not require routine tests of the standards, which is one of the faults leading to the Governor, as the regulator who could force the tests is appointed.

So apparently, unless Flint is forced to test their water and do something about it, they can't be held responsible for problems. Nor have responsibility for fixing the problem. Alas, the Flint manager that could fix the problem is also appointed by the governor, because previous Flint elected officials couldn't be trusted to spend money wisely.

Methadras said...

Can't someone call Michael Moore on this to supplant his particular brand of outrage about it all. Nothing says plaintive fat blubbering wailing like Michael Moore showing up somewhere and opening his gob. And this is happening in his city too. Figures.

Third Coast said...

At the moment, I can't locate what the testing standards were once lead contamination became an issue, but IIRC, the EPA and/or MDEQ required city-wide testing for lead. The problem was that they didn't concentrate the testing at locations where lead contamination was most likely to occur, ie, homes, schools and businesses with lead pipes. Subsequently, the test results were diluted so to speak and the true nature of the threat wasn't recognized and the problem was allowed to fester. It's ridiculous that those agencies didn't recognize how biased the results of that testing program would be.
Bottom line IMHO is that most of the blame has to go to those agencies entrusted to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen. At the critical moment when someone had to stand up and yell stop, there was no one with the requisite experience, knowledge and leadership there to do it. Instead we had highly paid pencil pushers arguing about meaningless testing protocols who couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Amartel said...

The EPA suppressed this information for a reason. It's either political (which r/o the Republican governor) and/or financial. Who profitted from this? Follow the money.

Amartel said...

Well, this is the EPA so the dog (a contractor) might have eaten the testing results or something. Or they went through the laundry by mistake and then no one could read them and re-testing was not mandated for another six months. Rules are rules. Can't be helped.

Third Coast said...

And speaking of lead contamination, the Hildabeeste and The Bern haven't called for Rahmbo's resignation? Say what?
The Hildabeeste didn't resign after massive lead contamination in Benghazi? No way.

Leland said...

Not content on just blaming the Republican Governor, but now he must be arrested.

Pull quote:
"The source of the Flint Water Crisis leads directly to Gov. Rick Snyder and the fiscal austerity policies that he and his Republican colleagues have been pushing for years on Michigan residents," said Lonnie Scott, executive director of Progress Michigan," in a statement released Thursday. "Families in Flint were forced to drink lead-tainted water while the administration scoffed at their concerns and cries for help."

If the Governor had that much power, wouldn't you think the solution would be to have a government with less power? I mean water is an essential part of life, and if a government can force you to drink a contaminated version of it, then that government has too much power entrusted to it. We already know there are free market solutions to drinking water without lead. I purchase a case of it anytime I travel to places with socialist governments.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

No one is blaming democrats who built the water system to begin with.

Yeah. Decades ago, I'm sure. But I realize that putting a Republican into office means never updating anything. The future progresses, and conservatives can't update. So obviously the answer is to remove all industrial water distribution systems altogether and revert to wells and pumps. The answer is to pick a point even further back in the past!

But alas. Your hero failed to even do that.

Just admit it. Republicans hate government and they hate governing and they hate the people and are only in it for the power and personal and financial aggrandizement. That's it.

Their motto should be, "We're in it for us! Not you!"

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

If the Governor had that much power, wouldn't you think the solution would be to have a government with less power?

I'd actually think the answer would be to demand that he exercise it more responsibly and competently but that's just me. Demanding that people who get my money be responsible with it, be fired, or face the other consequences we subject to people who fuck us over. I guess I'm not a Republican voter who says that the answer is to just give him less to do with all that money. Wish I could see the virtue in it but I can't.

Leland said...

Why give him the money in the first place? And why are you speaking on this subject? It involves science, and by your own thought process Ritmo, you are unqualified and should shut up.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I don't know what happened, but if the mayor was responsible through direct action or lack of it, he should resign.

Ah. You must not be familiar with the "emergency manager" law demanded by RepublicanGovSnyder so that he could remove power from municipal leaders (including mayors) and run their cities directly - similar to how Putin put an end to autonomy or direct elections in regions within Russia.

That alone makes him suspect when a big fuck-up like this happens in one of his "distressed" cities.

But alas, the only thing that matters to a Republican is how the finances add up. Or not. The functions those finances go to pay for are a "Democrat" problem. Or the problem of a lowly citizen or resident. Why should he care? He doesn't. They never do.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ampersand said...

Is somebody going to delete Ritmo's repulsive comment?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

And if Leland's "I wish I weren't as ignorant as I am" syndrome weren't bad enough, check out this shit:

If the Governor had that much power, wouldn't you think the solution would be to have a government with less power?

Rick Snyder happens to be one of those "special" Republicans who got his legislative lackeys to throw even more POWER to him despite a rejection from the voters six weeks earlier so that he could get away with having just this much more power.

So you see, even when Republicans TAKE more power, even at the objection of the voters, even when it's in one of the least democratic, least local-control fashions you could think of, some fuckhead Republican idiot who (as usual) knows nothing, like "Leland", will take the opportunity to turn the ensuing poisoning of that state's people as an opportunity to push his bankrupted, ideological agenda of political incompetence to imply that it was the "more COMPETENT government" party's fault.

Hey, at least Leland has something to believe in. And it's important to have things to believe in. Especially when you're a guy like Leland, a guy who has no use for understanding what happens in the real world.

The Republican Party platform was passed to him by a unicorn, who carried it in its mouth as it galloped over a series of rainbows. Rainbows illuminating reflections of greatness over lead-filled water reservoirs.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Leland: Say something intelligent and not ad hominem or just shut up and go away already. You're just like any typical Republican: Demanding others kiss your ass for not knowing anything and never giving a shit about anything. But pretending like you're an expert anyway. It's the everyman-wanting-to-run-the-world syndrome. And it's endemic in your political tribe.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Was the comment as repulsive as Republican lead-water, ampersand?

Don't worry, I already took out the big mean unkind part and reposted the section that even someone as one-sided as you should have trouble objecting to.

You guys are a trip. Defending the incompetent killing or poisoning of people at one turn while demanding kind treatment at another. It's really quite a schizophrenic way to go through life, isn't it?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Ampersand, now that I've responded to your tattling, you should delete your tattle-tail comment as well. I find it repulsive the way it just hangs there, with nothing to do, especially now that it got the censorship you wanted it to accomplish.

It's offensive for you to keep it up.

ampersand said...

As everyone around here already knows,you are a Gaping Flaming Pink Asshole. Unfortunately the people here are probably the closest thing you will ever have for a friend. Cram your phony compassion up your butt, your posts already demonstrate your character.

Leland said...

Say something intelligent and not ad hominem or just shut up and go away already.

Nice advice Ritmo, but somehow I doubt you are capable of following it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

That was insensitive, ampersand. So insensitive one might even call it "repulsive" - at least insofar as entreaties to "cram (things) up (one's) butt" are considered impolite.

You might want to consider deleting that, you know. I heard Republicans are becoming more and more concerned about impolite, offensive and insensitive speech, these days.

As for friends, I come here generally to understand why so many Americans seem to like the illogic of voting for incompetents to lead them. And then I see the somewhat incompetent quality of more than a few of their own thoughts, combined with a need to feel authoritative, and it helps me to understand. Although a number rise above that to actually put some interesting thought into how they feel and what they have to say.

There are some nice and even interesting people here (not you, apparently). But friends? Some I'm friendlier with than others. But trust me, my real-life friends are nowhere near as hypersensitive as you and the selected commenters here for whom you claim to speak, O Sweet, Sensitive, Gentle Little Soul. Ampersand of my Spiritual Anagrams...

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Nice advice Ritmo, but somehow I doubt you are capable of following it.

Ok, I'll let you go ahead and worry about that, Leland.

Lord knows it's already hard enough for you to bother worrying about figuring out who poisoned Flint's residents and how the Republican governor who took unusual power over the city's functions must somehow be completely absolved of it.

And how that power-grab was not really a Republican thing to do.

Rick Snyder is no true Scotsman.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

ampersand said:

"As everyone around here already knows,you are a Gaping Flaming Pink Asshole."

ampersand, that's really a rather graphic vulgarity, there.

I'd like to parse it, if I may. Sometimes understanding things makes them less, er, as you say - "repulsive".

First off, why "gaping"? That sounds pornographic, given the context. Do you often read about "gaping" assholes?

That's really an unusual or at least infrequent state of affairs for them, all things considered. Why, I'd doubt you'd even hear Titus talking that way.

Second, "flaming" might be a homophobic reference - but that's usually in isolation. How can an asshole itself be "flaming"? If it is a homosexual reference, maybe you can tell me how you can figure that out about an asshole just by looking at it. What does a "flaming" asshole look like, I wonder? Or did you mean to say that it's really on fire? And would you mean that literally (which is scary) or in the sense of a morning after the ingestion of many Scoville-intensive chile peppers?

Finally... pink? What are you meaning to say here? What sort of a picture are you painting and where did you come up with these characteristics?

You seem to know much more about these things than I was hoping to know about tonight, mr ampersand.

chickelit said...

Rhythm and Balls siding with Michael Moore tells me all I need to know.

Leland said...

I come back to find Ritmo wrote 3 more ad hominem filled comments that provided nothing of value. Thus proving he can not hold to his own moral code.

Methadras said...

Rhythm and Balls said...

Yeah. Decades ago, I'm sure. But I realize that putting a Republican into office means never updating anything. The future progresses, and conservatives can't update. So obviously the answer is to remove all industrial water distribution systems altogether and revert to wells and pumps. The answer is to pick a point even further back in the past!

But alas. Your hero failed to even do that.


The Gov. of Michigan isn't my hero. I think he's an idiot, but not because of this. But you see, instead of being an honest arbitor of the discussion, you just regress to your typical hyperbole, grab the histrionic football, run and jump of the cliff of idiocy into and drown in the sea of stupidity. You completely neglect who built this infrastructure and neglect who hid it for years and instead of anyone popping up and saying, "Yeah, we fucked up, sorry. We'll fix it" instead you have wagon circling in the alphabet leftist government agencies and finger pointing. Typical bureaucratic cover for all of the assholes who knew this was going on and allowed people to sicken themselves without saying a word until it was so obvious that by the time it come to light there is nothing anyone can or will do about it. And you just sit there and blame republicans as if they were the architects of this grand and evil plot to introduce lead into the water supply of the devious city of Flint. Those damnable Michiganders. They had it coming, while you shake your fist at someone, somewhere, who did something about something, and then just walking home and watched the next episode of the Bachelor waiting for the next crisis of faux indignation that he could get riled about. Yeah, that's you asshole.

Just admit it. Republicans hate government and they hate governing and they hate the people and are only in it for the power and personal and financial aggrandizement. That's it.

Their motto should be, "We're in it for us! Not you!"


Honestly, if I ever met you i'd probably be shocked at my utter lack of imagination at who I had envisioned you were. A probable 30 something slightly effeminate twink dressed in some urban chic sitting at a starbucks hammering out this ineffable screed about those rascally republicans and their utter hate for government. Yeah, you sure showed us buddy. You sure nailed us to the wall on that one. Man, I really don't know how we are going to ever live down your characterization it's just so spot on.

I just don't know sometimes where to begin with your particular brand of dumb smarm, snark, and smug. You are so in-fucking-love with the sound of your own thoughts, it's neigh impossible to penetrate through the sheer fog of steamy shit you've enraptured yourself in. I'd answer your stupid assessment of what you think republicans think of government, but i'd hate to burst the bubble of cartoonish characterization you've painted of what republicans are. The shock of the truth alone might turn you into an independent.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You know you're just as capable of snark Methadras and just as wordy with it. And yet, why not rise to the challenge rather than just dodge or distract from it? If Republicans really do think that keeping the water from being poisoned is as important as or more important than saving a few bucks, why not say so? All I hear is a bunch of dodging and politicking and philosophizing, and in the meantime, the Republican governor apologized. Should he have not done so? Does he have a responsibility? Should he have any? Should anyone in government take responsibility for safely distributing monopolized utilities in the places they "take over"? And is it not unseemly that this happened in not too shortly after his unpopular take-over of Flint?

Am I wrong to presume you're intelligent and honest enough to answer those very impersonal, very objective and very fair questions?

Chick can't rise above tribal "side-choosing" (basically admitting he's a straight-up political tribalist) and Leland keeps chiming in to advertise his inability to understand the difference between hypocrisy (of which he supplies a shit-ton) and irony.

But you, I think you're different. You're capable of providing a responsible, fair and honest/decent answer on important issues. As for the stereotypes, if they help paint an image in your head - so be it/knock yourself out. But they're pretty far off, if you want the truth.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Rhythm and Balls siding with Michael Moore tells me all I need to know.

The sheer number of things you feel no need to know says quite a lot, sadly.

Leland said...

I'm sorry to break the news for you, ritmo, but everything you thought about your favorite song is wrong.

But I got something to help you understand the words you use: my bad political decisions have cost me dearly. I and my 65,000 neighbors (2/3 population of Flint) deal with a volunteer local water board that supplies superior (according to EPA) drinking water at 1/3 the price per home as Flint and 1/4 the price of the nearest Democrat run city (which doesn't have the superior rating for its water supply).

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

As long as you think that gets the Republican-governor-led city of Flint off the hook for his/its poisonings, then I suppose that's all that should matter, Leland - to you, at least.

But many more people are more interested in individual accountability than in pro-Republican cheerleading.

Yes, everything every Republican does is wonderful, and leads to unicorns jumping over rainbows - with pots of gold at each end.

But in the meantime, the people there want justice. And the governor's apologizing.

Apparently you know something that he doesn't.

If only he just stood up there, beat his chest and said, "I'm a Republican! You can't touch me! Everything I do is INFALLIBLE!"

Yes, maybe then the whole situation would have turned out much better.

David said...

Yep. Blame the Republicans. It's the Dems one note song. Rhythm? You ain't got it.

Worked with a woman years ago. She was busy doing a paper for a college class in her spare time at work. All about Enron. And how G W Bush was responsible because Enron gave money to the cubbies. Of course Enron also gave money to the Dems, but the Dems are NEVER corrupted by money, sainted angels that they are. The ironic thing is that all of Enron's malfeasance happened under her hero Bill Clinton and was only discovered under GWB.

David said...

pubbles, not cubbies

Leland said...

As long as you think that gets the Republican-governor-led city of Flint off the hook for his/its poisonings, then I suppose that's all that should matter, Leland - to you, at least.

But in the meantime, the people there want justice.

If you say so, fine. I would think they would want clean water first, but that's what's Chick and the rest of us were discussing. You apparently are more concerned about being polemic.

At the end of this and every other day, your arguments don't change the fact that I happily don't have to be outraged by my governor's lack of concern about my water supply, since I and my neighbors decided to take responsibility for it ourselves.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

At the end of this and every other day, your arguments don't change the fact that I happily don't have to be outraged by my governor's lack of concern about my water supply, since I and my neighbors decided to take responsibility for it ourselves.

Any other Americans you'd like to proclaim your superiority to? Or just the people of Flint?

Maybe tomorrow you'll decide which other Americans you're superior to.

Oh, BTW. The American people elected a guy named Obama. Twice.

Since I presume you don't like that guy, you can blame yourself for being an American.

Your approach of blaming the people of a city for the way its politicians have poisoned them is quite admirable. Maybe next you will demand that every city that doesn't get itself a self-contained bubble is responsible for the impact of any air pollution there.

And if there's a nuclear disaster, you can blame any nearby municipalities affected by fall-out or contamination for not cloaking themselves in lead.

Somehow, a politician must be absolved, though. At least if he's a Republican. Because your own situation is better and that's all that matters. Let everyone who hasn't been a part of a situation as great as Leland's feel wonderful about being poisoned. Cosmic justice has been performed. Leland has his, and everyone else needs to drop dead.

chickelit said...

Rhythm and Balls said...As long as you think that gets the Republican-governor-led city of Flint off the hook for his/its poisonings,...

How is Flint "Republican-governor-led"?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You already said that you know all you need to know about it Chick so don't you worry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_emergency_in_Michigan#List_of_Emergency_Managers

There is simply no way to intelligently discuss this issue and the policies that led to it without becoming informed of that. You even mention the law in your post. And yet, you apparently don't know what it entails. The people running the municipalities he puts into receivorship are people whom he appoints. They are given broad powers over day-to-day management, and hence seem to have had a huge role in this particular utility decision. It's incredibly controversial as it is the opposite of anything we would recognize as "local control" - repealing the democratically elected decisions of the cities' peoples and having the governor install someone who takes over most of those functions instead. I'm sure I already mentioned this a bunch of times in the thread and it provides massive background to what happened.

But again, if you're the type of guy who simply tries to figure out "all he needs to know" about something and then, leaves it at that, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you left it at that - way short of what any responsible commenter would want to learn about how a city's basic decision-making processes and checks and balances would become so corrupted and hasty.

The law is disappointing enough. The situation, more disappointing still.

That you've ignored all this, is dismaying.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Snyder#Flint_water_crisis

chickelit said...

Your first link has an interesting footnote #36.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Lol. By then the damage had been done. The lead didn't hit the fan of the news media until about the fall, near as I can tell.

And at that point, his concerns seemed more political than health and welfare oriented:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/01/snyders_email_release_shows_go.html#incart_most-commented_news_article

http://www.mlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/01/rick_snyder_flint_dashboard.html

http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/09/michigan-ranks-last-laws-ethics-transparency/75288210/

This is a problem for him. This inevitably raises additional scrutiny about the expansion of the law that pushed through (over the voters' objections) and he knows it.

He prioritized money and politics over safety. The results are predictable.

chickelit said...

I'm going to reiterate one of my first comments on this whole story:

"There are three layers of culpability here: local, state and Federal. Local and federal will try to squeeze the state for Snyder's scalp, thereby politicizing the whole thing. That is how power is projected these days."

But you, R&B, you all along have only been interested in Snyder's scalp. You, Rodham, and Michael Moore that is.

Why is that?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Chick - learn what you want (or care to) but brass tacks:

Do you seriously see no problem with recalling the functions of elected officials at more local levels so that you can just appoint someone of your own choosing at a larger, more powerful level of government?

Corollary: This is like what Putin did in order to consolidate power. Do we now do away with the doctrine of federalism also?

Do you really think that health and safety issues should be minimized for the sake of financial concerns?

Do you really think you know enough about power (and abuses of it) works, to opine on issues that touch on how power is misused, corrupted, mismanaged?

People were poisoned, Chick. They still lack a source of safe drinking water. It was his appointee's decision to switch from a proven safe drinking water source to a "cheaper" one.

Can you explain to me why none of that seems to bother you?

Do you just think that people entrusted with decisions having to do with others' safety should just be unaccountable? Or is it just when it's done for money that that makes everything all right?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But you, R&B, you all along have only been interested in Snyder's scalp. You, Rodham, and Michael Moore that is.

Why is that?


The EM is a peon.

You talk of having some rudimentary knowledge of the law.

There were many involved in this whole mess. The one with the most power was the governor.

It's a basic tenet of responsibility that of everyone who's a party to a huge mess, the most responsible one matters.

Your kid might get into a fight with another kid. And you're there to witness it, but choose to do nothing.

The other parent gets pissed at you because you had the most responsibility of all the witnesses, and bowed out.

That's not how responsibility works, and that's not how a responsible society governs itself.

Your dad apparently told you words to that effect. Being a bystander is how neighborhoods degraded by gang activity react.

It's not how politicians who push through unpopular policies leading to that decision-making catastrophe react.

The governor knows this. But then, at least he's politically competent enough to understand that much.

You, OTOH, seem to have no clue about how responsibility works.

Calling for the heads of the lowest-level official, instead of the one with the greatest responsibility - that's not how free people roll.

It's what terrorists do.

The suits are not leaving the others unscathed. They'll get theirs.

But their involvement is not as interesting.

Leadership is about being held accountable. Especially when a catastrophe couldn't have occurred without your unpopular policy being forced into action - at the objection of the people affected by it.

They're right to call for his head. And he knows it.

What a weak move. Pointing to the underlings.

That's a Nixon thing to do.

We know what happened to him.

If you don't understand how adult responsibility works, then at least learn from history for Christ's sake.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

With great power comes great responsibility.

But Chickie likes the fuehrerprinzip, I suppose - and wants to make sure all the little henchmen take the fall. Like Nixon wanted to do!

Many parties are named in those lawsuits. I don't for a second suggest taking any of the little henchmen off of it.

But it's hard to see what any federal elected official did in any of this that's lawsuit-worthy. Never mind that sovereign immunity makes that trickier anyway.

The governor is an elected official. He demanded this sort of decision-making authority represented in the unusual EM law. Of course he will get roasted.

To deny that is to deny three basic aspects of culpability:
1. His power (he has the most of any named party to the suit).
2. He's an elected official (we seem to like holding them accountable because they are the ones subject to the voice of the people, you might recall - moreso than some "appointed" twat like the EM), and
3. Without demanding passage of the unpopular expansion of the EM law, as HE did, it's incredibly unlikely that any of this would have happened.

Whether you like it or not, neither you (nor any of us) have the choice of not living in a society. The three points I make above are fundamental rules about what it means to live in a society - and how we assign and apportion responsibility within it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

http://media.fyre.co/K4ntKsBgR56ejzsxpwSr_Synder.png

chickelit said...

There is such a thing as due process, R&B. You have already tried and convicted Snyder. You, Moore, Rodham, et al..

And don't talk about "responsible" politicians resigning unless you're willing to look up and down the street, both ways.

You talk of having some rudimentary knowledge of the law.

Fuck you, R&B for that comment. You and the high horse you always ride in on.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Check these comments. You might learn something:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2016/01/bernie_sanders_calls_on_gov_ri.html

When a company screws up, the CEO gets canned.

The order to switch water supplies came from the emergency manager appointed by the Governor. Flint was not asked to switch, they were told to switch. The peopled hired to do the work, either by the state or city didn't follow the correct guidelines to treat the river water. OK, that's bad enough, but for months afterward the people of Flint were told their water was safe to drink. Of all the things that went wrong, that is the most damning. Testing water doesn't take a rocket scientist. The State had to know the water was not safe and just tried to cover it up and hope the problem went away. The parents of these children didn't do anything wrong, unless trusting our elected officials qualifies. The city didn't do anything wrong. They did what they were told to do. So why blame the Governor and his minions? They were in charge. It was their decision to switch the water supply and it was their responsibility to make sure it was done correctly. It was also their responsibility to test the water and make sure it was safe. They managed to screw everything they touched up and then let the city drink tainted water for months before admitting there was a problem. Blame the republicans? Last I looked the Governor is a republican and the people he appointed also fall into that category. It all adds up. You just don't want to believe it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There is such a thing as due process, R&B. You have already tried and convicted Snyder. You, Moore, Rodham, et al..

That's funny. I didn't know I or any of those people had that power.

But we do have the power to make our voices heard. And what we're all saying is that his responsibility is clear - at least politically, and from his email trail - probably ethically. You want to give him his day in court? That's fine. I won't deny him that.

But then, lawsuits take time. If he wants to put the people of the state through all this misery while we wait for investigations to take place, that's his prerogative, too. And it's a very selfish one. In the meantime, a state's business needs to be conducted - with a governor they can trust. One who doesn't have the air of a scandal this odious hanging over his neat little head.

And don't talk about "responsible" politicians resigning unless you're willing to look up and down the street, both ways.

Right. Which other politician, at that high a level or higher, made the decisions to switch to a more polluted water source, and THEN SHUT DOWN residents' complaints when they worried about its poor quality?

As you travel that scheme, it points to one guy. The guy you need to see as an angel. (Because of his politics).

"You talk of having some rudimentary knowledge of the law."

Well, don't you?

Fuck you, R&B for that comment. You and the high horse you always ride in on.

Ahhh. there's the self-righteous indignation.

But I can understand it. In this pathetic little comment you've demonstrated less understanding of basic law and government than even the least typical Rush Limbaugh listener.

Wake up and smell the lunacy. And stop being self-righteous about it.

Stop calling other people political when there are lives at stake and a clear series of bad and even wrong decisions made BY the politicians you're so interested in providing a non-existent defense.

The people of the state don't have time to wait around for the governor to learn how to be responsible. He should save them the time of an investigation and just resign.

But then, I only say that because I think their needs as regards safe drinking water are more important than the governor's political ambitions and reputation.

But I guess everyone's got to have their own priorities straight, Chick. What a pity that yours are so darn narrow and corruptible.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

BTW, if it was my use of the word "rudimentary" that got you so angry, I only used that word because of the time I asked if you were a lawyer (based on descriptions in your profile and comments) and you said that you weren't. It's hard to see why a non-lawyer would get offended over being referred to as a non-expert in the law. But maybe your Snydie Senses were piqued and you were just feeling more sensitive because of the governor's political woes.

Methadras said...

You know what Ritmo, my imagination is about 99% wrong on the internet anyway so like I said, the way I imagine you and your interaction is solely based on the way you interact and the way my brain interprets it, so I reality is going to be much different on that front.

However, as to your other assertions on the blame game of Flints water supply, I'm going to basically say it like this. That water infrastructure was there long before the Governor was there and has been known about for a long long time and no one said a thing. Now, I predicted that the governor was going to turn chump and he did exactly that because regardless if you are a republican of any standing, you will most likely wither under the assault of democrats because they have zero to fear since the ideology of democrats is to always be on constant attack and to look for opportunities to assert their will on a situation. Especially like this. After all, they have nothing to lose. It was democrats who built that water infrastructure, knew its faults, didn't care, let it go, people forgot about it, until it came up again, and a cover-up ensued until it was uncovered and while a republican governor who had nothing to do with it just happens to be the one in power.
.
Republicans should actually tell every democrat to go fuck themselves. The party of racists and societal blamers, the democrats, the party of yes, we'll give you anything you want as long as you keep us in power party, would utterly wither under such fire, because their vacuous ideas can't stand the light of simple logic before it, but republicans in power are their own worst enemies so it's up to the common members of the party, the regular average citizen who has to come up with ways to explain away the spineless dickheads they elect into office and their ability to show their bellies whenever a democrat starts pointing fingers. It's almost Pavlovian.

Furthermore, it wasn't about saving a few bucks, but the state basically trying to figure out what to do with an entire water supply and the pipes it runs in. The fed doesn't give a shit and they won't take the blame. The locals know they fucked up and they do the same thing that the fed does. Shovel blame back to the state. It's their fault. They did it and democrats again, get to skate.

Leland said...

Your approach of blaming the people of a city for the way its politicians have poisoned

Taking personal responsibility is literally the exact opposite of blame. For example: it's another day, and my drinking water is just fine, because I spent no time blaming anyone and took personal responsibility. That's what chick's linked article was all about. No surprise ritmo fails to comprehend this. I know its wrong, but I find ritmo's illiteracy to be hilarious.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You find things to be hilarious because you're an idiotic asshole. Find a single lawyer who agrees that an "emergency manager" and the governor who appointed him lack any responsibility for the water quality outcomes after mandating how a city's water supply be maintained. Of course, you won't, and you can't - but then your idea of personal responsibility is a fantasy Mad Max sort of dystopia where there are no laws and no politicians. There goes everything having to do with torts and legal agency, but hey - Leland has a perfect solution for every person he's never met, every place he's never been to, and every situation he's never been in. It's just a part of his superiority complex and insistence that everyone be as perfect as he thinks he must be. And the best thing is, it's RETROACTIVE! Your kid was poisoned by lead because he didn't assume the water was dangerous (as the majority of people don't and have no reason to)? Well, screw him! Here's a perfect solution to WHAT ALREADY HAPPENED! The injury those kids incurred? That's hilarious! Here's what you should have done while your Republican governor was lying to you...

He'd make a great E.R. doctor. People get wheeled in and Leland will say, "Well, that's a shame. The poor son of a bitch needs to die anyway for getting into such an unsafe situation. Social Darwinism and all. Can't help him but ISN'T THAT HILARIOUS! HAHAHAHAHA HAR-DEE HAR HAR. Now your kid's going to die! What a knee-slapping good time! Isn't this grand!"

Have you ever considered castrating yourself? Clearly you have no morals.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

For example: it's another day, and my drinking water is just fine, because I spent no time blaming anyone and took personal responsibility.

Unless you're personally collecting your own rainwater in a closed system (oxymoron, I know, but bear with it) and maintaining a chemical testing lab (that you also created from scratch) for quality control over every last drop of it, then by definition you are relinquishing "personal responsibility" to whomever is doing those things. Forget politics and government. The whole FUCKING economy functions because people invest trust in whomever they do business with, and have expectations that they will maintain standards of basic quality control, or face severe punishments for fraud or worse if they fail that. You are not the god of your own society and if you can't understand the importance of not being lied to and the inevitability that sometimes people will and simply need to face punishments to deter them as best as possible then you really are too stupid and immoral to have anything more to say about the matter.

Leland said...

Taking personal responsibility means not having to find a lawyer in a crisis, but like everyday before, taking a drink of clean and healthy water, which may come from a cistern, but that's not how it becomes safe to drink.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Once someone finds a way to allow for arsenic to leach into your supply I'll make sure to see if you feel the same way. And given the way you condone the poisoning of nearly a million people, I'm sure there are more than a few people willing to do that to you.

Leland said...

Well now that your comment has been screenshot, I hope you get a goodnight's rest.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Are you refusing to take responsibility for your belief that the poisoned people of Flint deserved to be poisoned? I'm only reminding you that someone could say the same thing if it happened to you.

What if you went to a restaurant and someone poisoned your water? We could say that you weren't diligent enough in going into the kitchen and interrogating all the busboys. As long as you say that personal responsibility knows no limits and that people can't be sued or prosecuted for violating them, then it's the logical extension of the same immorality that you're ok with.

Leland said...

Are you refusing to take responsibility for your belief that the poisoned people of Flint deserved to be poisoned?

Ritmo, that is called a strawman argument. The only person that made that claim is you. I never did. Not once. You are pretending that is my view, so you have rational for irrational hate. It is called a logical fallacy. If you clicked my earlier link, you would know that.

The only immoral person around here is you.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Feel free to keep saying things that you need to convince yourself of.

Go write a letter to Governor Snyder telling him that it was wrong for him to apologize and that all responsibility for the tragedy falls on the people who were poisoned and the federal government - since that's what you obviously believe. Tell him how everything he regrets was perfectly justifiable.

Outline a step-by-step indictment of what the federal government did wrong -- I mean, other than existing. Explain what they "did" wrong, not that their existence is wrong.

I mean, shit. Even Hamas and Hizbollah and the U.N. draw up complaints of what they think Israel does wrong. You, OTOH, you're just about saying, "Well, if the government exists then that fact makes it wrong."

The clinically insane have better judgment of others than you do. And I wouldn't trust you to find water in a rainstorm.

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