For 26 years, Pete Rose has kept to one story: He never bet on baseball while he was a player. Yes, he admitted in 2004, after almost 15 years of denials, he had placed bets on baseball, but he insisted it was only as a manager."Closes the door," meaning the door to re-admission to baseball and possible chances to the Hall of Fame.
But new documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Cincinnati Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986. The documents go beyond the evidence presented in the 1989 Dowd report that led to Rose's banishment and provide the first written record that Rose bet while he was still on the field.
"We knew that [Bertolini] recorded the bets, and that he bet himself, but we never had his records. We tried to get them. He refused to give them to us," Dowd said. "This is the final piece of the puzzle on a New York betting operation with organized crime. And, of course, [Rose] betting while he was a player."
The documents obtained by Outside the Lines, which reflect betting records from March through July 1986, show no evidence that Rose, who was a player-manager in 1986, bet against his team.
Monday, June 22, 2015
"Entries in long-hidden notebook show Pete Rose bet on baseball as player"
"This does it. This closes the door"
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27 comments:
I am truly surprised to hear this.
Although this pea brain thought betting as a player was worse than betting as a manager is worse, IMO betting as a manager is worse. Assuming all bets were made on your team, a player cannot make short term decisions to try and win a game w/ a large bet made on it. A manager can. Leave in a starter who should be taken out to save his arm. Bringing in a reliever who needs the day off. Those kind of managerial decisions could be, and probably were made.
Johnny Bench is having a second career as a pitchman for Blue Emu, the ointment that's supposed to relieve your aches and pains. I love the way he ends his spiel: "......and you won't stink!"
There are many Hall of Famers who bet on baseball. Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were actually forced to retire because of their involvement with gamblers.
I feel the same way about Pete Rose as I do about the steroids guys. The stats are what is important. There are a lot of guys who did messed up shit in the Hall of Fame. Cap Anson was an out and out racist who placed the ban on black players in the Majors. Cobb and Speaker were gamblers who might have thrown games. Babe Ruth was a hedonist and a whore monger who missed the World Series because he had the clap. Lou Gehrig was German. Ted Williams was a homo who never won anything and had his head chopped off and stuck to a tuna fish can. Willie Mays hated watermelon and fried chicken. Jackie Robinson was a Republican. But their stats can not be taken away from them.
Not everyone is an uptight traditional moralist like Nick Spinelli. Hey lets live and let live. These guys are just playing for our amusement.
If you want to talk about gambling you need to talk about the NFL which is based on gambling. If there was no gambling and betting on games the NFL would not exist.
Don't be so uptight.
The NFL is all about gambling. The Maras and the Rooneys were bookmakers when they bought their franchises. In fact the Maras got the money to buy the Giants after a streak at the racetrack.
Carroll Rosenblum threw the Superbowl which is the only way the Jets could ever win anything. He was later murdered by gangsters because he was about to be taken to the grand jury.
Big stars as far back as the 1960's were suspended for gambling on football. The worst was of course a Green Bay Packer Paul Hornung who was suspended for a year for betting on games. Those Packers are always the worst.
You know what question every football fan asks about the game? Not who won or lost. Who covered the spread.
According to Bill Bryson in his book, " One Summer 1927", there is credible evidence that Babe Ruth had a brief affair with Lou Gehrig's wife. They left that out of the movie.......If Denny McClain made the Hall of Fame would that help him with the parole board?........Ty Cobb came from a very disturbed background. He overcame a lot and was overcome by a lot. What's the opposite of hagiography? He's the only Hall of Famer I can recall who's had a critical biopic made of his life.
It seems to me that every player and manager is betting on baseball. They put everything on the line for it and can win or lose big. If they only bet on their own team winning, I don't see how it really would change things. They pretty much try to win every game anyway. If I owned the team, I 'd like the idea of them having extra skin in the game.
I suppose some folks have a soft spot in their heart for degenerate gamblers.
So, I put up a comment on an Althouse post at Instapundit. I feel dirty. Am I a bad person? Is it a slippery slope?
I must be strong!!! Like a Stonewall (Jackson).
"According to Bill Bryson in his book, "
Hello, Bryson is an author who writes a book a year on various subjects from Hiking to Travel to English to whatever..
He's not an expert on anything and if his books says X, you can be sure its just based on a magazine article or another book that another superficial writer wrote.
IOW, I wouldn't believe him on Babe Ruth or anything else without support from 3 credible sources.
As for Rose, the rule was you bet on baseball and you're out - period. Live by the rules. Plus, he's a liar and overrated player.
Betting on baseball gets to the very core of the game. If you can't trust the players to give it their all, if its all just phony like Wrestling because the fix is in, then how can watch it or even bet on it?
Cobb may have been a jerk but when he got on the field he was giving it 110% and trying to maim the opposing players with his razor sharp cleats. That's what baseball is all about.
Agree with Nick on the managers being able to throw the game easier than a single player.
Rabel, Guilt is a negative emotion. I find people who need to feel some guilt never do, and those who do not need to feel guilty are often overwhelmed by it. I tire of people who say where one should or should not post comments. To each their own. Comment wherever the fuck you want!
Most of Cobb's career was prior to the 1921 edict that betting on baseball is a lifetime ban. That edict came from the first Commissioner of Baseball, Kennesaw Mountain Landis, a former Federal Judge. The edict was in response to the 1919 White Sox throwing the World Series. EVERY player knows the rule. It's posted in every clubhouse.
Gambling has always been part of sports. In fact it is now the lifeblood of most sports. Without they wouldn't have the multimillion dollar contracts or the huge TV deals.
Plus I am a fan of most degenerates. Beats sanctimony every time.
The greatest basketball player who ever played was a degenerate gambler. I have no doubt he bet on his own team. They just covered it up.
Should he have been banned from the Hall of Fame?
Da bum.
I have little use for people who do not understand the damage done by the 1919 Black Sox scandal and the history of the lifetime ban. To conflate some fat asshole sitting in a bar betting w/ a bookie, w/ a player or manager betting on a game, is utter ignorance. Ignorant people confuse righteousness and knowledge of history w/ sanctimony. A good example of sanctimony is calling someone a "Dirty Protestant" and being holier than thou in all things Catholic.
If you think betting is not going on right now and that players in all major sports are not major players in the betting world is just silly and naive. The holier than thou self righteousness comes in when you stick you head in the sand and think you know it all.
Sports betting is endemic among players, managers and even worse sports officials. They just are better at covering their tracks. Tim Donaghy is just the tip of the iceberg.
I saw Pete Rose and Steve Carleton lose thousands at blackjack in AC when they were on the Phillies. If you anything about gamblers you will know they will bet on anything. The action is the thing and they will respect nothing and no one.
I knew a guy who used to take a lot of action from some major leaguers in the 1990's. I mean he claimed he did and he had a bunch of their private cell numbers when cellphones were just starting out. He could always get tickets from them and occasionally he would introduce us to them. How does a mook from Brooklyn get to know those guys? I mean he could have been selling blow but he was never a dope guy. Just gambling and half a shy.
Gambling is widespread in sports. Much more so in football and basketball than baseball. It is a lot harder to shave points in baseball. It doesn't lend itself to that so easily. That is why I doubt that Pete Rose ever threw a game.
Now I think Joe Girardi is throwing games. Anytime he sends CC out there I go strong against the Yanks. I hate to do that but waddayagonnado?
Blogger AJ Lynch said...
I am truly surprised to hear this.
June 22, 2015 at 4:59 PM
I am truly UNsurpised about this, though I am, actually, surprised to see that there are people out there who, at last, are bothering to acknowledge the obvious even from long ago.
If I could do it all again:
I wouldn't do it all.
I did not imply, nor did I even infer, that there are not heavy and degenerate gamblers in professional sports. I have related playing craps w/ Torre and his entire coaching staff @ the MGM in Detroit the night they clinched the pennant. They played for 45 minutes or so and then Torre said, "Let's go play some blackjack." He is the alpha. Zimmer was the court jester. Stottlemyre is a really good craps player and a nice guy. He stayed for a couple hours. I know the competitive edge in athletes makes them hungry to gamble. Charles Barkley is an admitted degenerate gambler. Jordan is a non admitted degenerate gambler. All that said, I am quite certain baseball players, even the degenerate gamblers, don't commit the cardinal sin and bet on their sport. Have there been a handful who have, and not gotten caught. Almost certainly. Is it rampant as you say it is. Bullshit. But, neither of us KNOW how many have bet on baseball. We do KNOW Rose did. And we do KNOW that means a lifetime ban. We do KNOW that being banned precludes entry into the HOF.
Regarding if Rose ever threw a game. I will admit, for the sake of argument and to end this discussion, he never did throw a game. That is irrelevant. BETTING on baseball means a lifetime ban. The rule emanates from 1919 when White Sox players did throw a game. I've read several books on the subject. Landis made the case to the owners that the credibility of baseball was on the line and that must never happen again. You eliminate even the hint of throwing games by making a draconian rule that even betting means a lifetime ban. Some owners wanted just the White Sox players to have that lifetime ban. Landis convinced them the rule must continue in perpetuity.
I know, I don't know it all. But it's obvious I know more than you.
I don't know if Rose should or should not be in the HOF, but it's hard to feel sorry for a guy who has looked a thousand people in the eye and lied, lied, lied, lied and lied.
He broke the most important rule. No gambling. If people think your sport is dirty, you turn into pro wrestling. It is the one thing you can't have. People have to think it's a "real" sport, not fixed. Ironically, one reason for that is ... so people can gamble.
If he ever gets into the HOF, a part of his display should be about his gambling and lies and the damage he did.
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