"German pilot and airlines expert, Peter Haisenko, thinks that Malaysia Flight 17 was not blown up by a ground-based antiaircraft missile, but shot down by the type of double-barreled 30-mm guns used on Ukrainian SU-25 fighter planes. Haisenko presented his theory in a widely-circulated and controversial article which appeared on the Global Research website titled “Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile”. Here’s an excerpt from the article:
“The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile….” (“Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile””, Global Research)
Haisenko notes that the munitions used on Ukrainian fighters–anti-tank incendiary and splinter-explosive shells–are capable of taking down a jetliner and that the dense pattern of metal penetrated by multiple projectiles is consistent with the firing pattern of a 30-mm gun.
The fact that Russian radar spotted a SU 25 in the area where MH17 was attacked, has persuaded many that Haisenko’s analysis is credible. Adding to the controversy, international monitor Michael Bociurkiw, who was one of the first inspectors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) to reach the crash site and who spent more than a week examining the ruins–also appears to be convinced that the ill-fated jetliner was not hit by a missile but downed by machinegun fire consistent with the myriad bullet-holes visible on the fuselage. Here’s what he told
“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pock-marked. It almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire that has left these unique marks that we haven’t seen anywhere else.We’ve also been asked if we’ve seen any signs of a missile?Well, no we haven’t. That’s the answer.” (“Malaysia Airlines MH17: Michael Bociurkiw talks about being first at the crash site“, CBC News. Note: The above quote is from the video)
The burden of proof now falls on Washington to produce whatever hard evidence they may have via radar or satellite imagery that will persuade the public that their story is credible. The best way to do that, would be to provide whatever relevant information and data they’ve compiled but refused to release for the last two weeks.
What we know about the crash so far, is that MH17 was rerouted from the flight-path that other Malaysia “Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur” flights had been taking for the two weeks prior.
Why was the flight path suddenly changed? Why was MH17 rerouted through a war zone? Why was the pilot told to fly at a lower altitude instead of the 35,000 ft he had requested? Why was the flight path suddenly adjusted 14 kilometers north just as the plane entered the war zone?"
-CounterPunch
39 comments:
Very strange.
Also strange: why were these facts not brought out earlier?
Also, who is flying the Ukrainian SU-25 fighter planes? Russian-backed Ukrainians or nationals?
The scenario that MH17 was shot down from the ground took hold early. Why, given these easily obtainable facts about the routing? I remember speculation about other aircraft and the re-routing on the first day.
The fact that these questions are seriously considered indicates the complete lack of faith that derives from (1) big aggressively unaccountable governments and (2) lockstep media and other cronies.
Hey I bet the Israeli's were involved.
Stands to reason doncha think?
I thought that there were witnesses that saw the rockets going up toward the plane, and the separatists at first even claimed to have shot it down with rockets before they found out it was a passenger plane, and then denied it. That's what I remember anyway.
I think I remember it the way bags is talking about. That we 'intercepted' incriminating audio of the people that shot it down from the ground.
They were speaking in something that sounded like Russian but... we only have one Russian speaker here, that I know of ;)
CounterPunch, really?
Anyway, the author of that conspiracy piece, Peter Haisenko, published a book in 2010 called England, the Germans, the Jews and the 20th century. Interesting title.
Here's the Google-translated summary of the book that appears on the German Amazon site:
"Summary of England, the Germans, the Jews and the 20th century: wars are started for two reasons - economic and religious. A country with economic problems must be considered potentially aggressive. To estimate this, it is essential to investigate the situation of an economy before the war. Under this aspect, relationships become visible which otherwise remain hidden. In modern times it is often overlooked that the struggle for oil is the real reason for war. The observations of Peter Haisenko show that it was otherwise already more than 100 many years ago. The unbearable conditions in Palestine and in Iraq have their origin in the ruthless imposition of economic interests at the beginning and during the 20th century. This shows that politically orchestrated lies and intrigues are not an invention of modern times. The European wars of the 20th century were accompanied by them. With this book you go on a journey through the 20th century and the analysis of economic and political links can be some ‘historical truth’ appear doubtful."
Hmm. Wonder just who he thinks was really responsible for the wars?
I'm going out on a limb here and saying I don't think he's a reliable source.
By the way Deb, we have an MH17 tag, I believe.
Hey, I didn't do it!
The evidence, or what is left of it, has been compromised.
One picture purported MH17 fuselage pieces were being used as road block material.
Guys,
This is freaking Counterpunch that's being quoted, okay? What's next --- a quote from Stormfront on the Jewish question?
The article links to another article that is clearly a Russian propaganda vehicle.
Here's the photo in question. I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but take a look & see for yourself what you think. Me, I don't think so, but I don't shoot down airplanes for a living.
If there was a scenario that cleared the Russians, wouldn't you think that the Russians would have had international inspectors in there lickety-split after the shoot-down to absolve them? No, the Russians have done everything they can to impede the investigation.
And you know who else flies SU-25's? The Russian Air Force! Because, you know, it's a Russian made plane...
The article claims that
The MH 017 looked similar in it’s tricolor design to that that of the Russian President’s plane. The plane with President Putin on board was at the same time ”near” Malaysia MH 017.
So, the Ukrainians wanted to shoot down Putin's presidential plane & just shot down the wrong one. Why would they want to do that? So, the Russians would have a clear causus belli for a full fledged invasion of Ukraine?
I can't imagine how claiming that MH17 was shot down by a SU-25 necessarily implicates the Ukrainians. If the Russians have transponder codes that prove it was a Ukie plane, then release the info from the highest levels of the Russian government to the UN, not from the mouth of some German conspiratorialist.
Every SAM unit has a radar trail akin to ballistics, unique to that unit. US satellites pinpointed a SAM firing from rebel held territory @ the time of the downing. We can match that documented radar trail to the unit that fired the missile. The only way to pinpoint the unit is to have access to it. There are a sequence of photos showing a SAM unit being moved from Ukraine to Russia immediately following the shoot down. The unit was missing one missile. Is Putin acting like he wants the truth found?? Chrissake, Hamas propaganda and know this crazy horseshit! Any Elvis sightings?
Hey give deborah a break. She was busy down in Australia.
There is a big time difference. She will get on that Elvis stuff right away.
Whoa, dude - it's almost like the old days when we had Inga Einsatzgruppen to kick around.
Don't tell me deborah had a relative die in a concentration camp, too.
Hey I am just teasing her.
It's really not true.
She's not in Australia.
Hey, I didn't do it!
Sixty and Putin have never been seen in the same place at the same time. Ponder that why donchya!
Sixty Grit said...
Hey, I didn't do it!
August 6, 2014 at 4:48 PM
So there!
It's also the 69 anniversary of Hiroshima, if anybody wants to be really spooky.
Lem said...
I think I remember it the way bags is talking about. That we 'intercepted' incriminating audio of the people that shot it down from the ground.
They were speaking in something that sounded like Russian but... we only have one Russian speaker here, that I know of ;)
Absolutely right
The missile doesn't hit the target directly. It's armed with a proximity fuse that detonates near the aircraft, turning the warhead and missile components into a fragmentation pattern. That's where all the holes in the fuselage came from.
Here's CNN on those intercepted phone calls:
The recordings, translated and distributed by Ukrainian officials, begin with an alleged militant informing others that a plane has been shot down.
The communication picks up later, once the alleged rebels reach the scene of the crash.
Here's a segment of a conversation between an alleged pro-Russian rebel named Major and another identified as Grek, per Ukrainian authorities:
Major: The plane broke into pieces in the air ... we have found the first 200 (dead). It's a civilian."
Grek: "How are things going there?"
M: "Well, we are 100% sure that it was a civilian plane."
G: "Are there a lot of people?"
M: "F--k! The debris was falling straight into the yards."
M: "Here are remnants of internal brackets, chairs, bodies."
G: "Are there any weapons?"
M: "Nothing at all. Civilian belongings, medical scraps, towels, toilet paper."
Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk on Friday blasted the "terrorists" he blamed for shooting down the plane a day earlier, with 298 people aboard.
CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the phone call, and it is not known if the recordings were edited or when they were made.
But Lt. Col. Rick Francona, a CNN military analyst, said he would not be surprised if Ukrainians were able to monitor the communications of the rebels.
"Ukrainian intelligence, they're pretty good in their own territory," he said Friday on CNN's "New Day."
In a final segment of the alleged intercepted phone calls, an unidentified militant allegedly speaks with a Russian Cossack, Mykola Kozitsyn.
Militant: "On TV, they say like it is a Ukrainian An-26, a transport plane. But the writing says 'Malaysia Airlines.' What was it doing over the territory of Ukraine?"
Kozitsyn: "Well then it was bringing spies. Why the hell were they flying? This is war going on."
If it was shot down by an SU-25, then this is actually worse than being shot down by a SAM. Either way, this is still no good for Russia. But there was audio of two Russian apparatchiks talking about shooting a missile at the plane.
Oh, me. I don't read CounterPunch and did not realize it had such a poorly regarded Lefty bent, as far as some on the Right are concerned. And it is my very bad luck they are anti-Zionist, considering how my Project Protective Edge post was received.
As I said, I love Jews and Judaism, and I think Israel and Palestine are entwined in a neurotic death grip.
Google how Putin worked the Israeli people into a frenzy of grief and prayers over the 'missing' teens, although they were found almost immediately, and the perpetrators within a day, IIRC. Even their parents were kept in the dark.
As far as the plane, we'll see what develops. After my first reaction, my second thought was a CIA false flag. Guess I'm just weird like that.
Not sure of the accuracy of this, but I have read the Ukrainians won't release control tower chatter occurring at the time of the event. And there are allegations that the US had a satellite overhead at the time.
We'll see.
"Hmm. Wonder just who he thinks was really responsible for the wars?"
I don't know, Lydia, but maybe in the morning your spidey sense will be recharged. Let us know what you come up with.
As far as the 'intercepted communications,' the key word is alleged.
deborah,
Even the Daily Kos, not a conservative site the last I checked, says CounterPunch is well known to engage "in a consistent pattern of anti-semitism, all of which has been well-documented".
Thanks, mac, what do you think of this pdf pic, if it is even from the plane?
pdf
Here is the picture source. The article alleges that plane debris photos have been removed from google, and the like:
pdf source
Thanks, Ldyia. Be a doll and canvas all the well-known liberal sites and let us know which are anti-Semitic, which are pro-Semitic, which are pro-Zionist, which are anti-Zionist, and which blame both sides.
YH:
"I can't imagine how claiming that MH17 was shot down by a SU-25 necessarily implicates the Ukrainians. If the Russians have transponder codes that prove it was a Ukie plane, then release the info from the highest levels of the Russian government to the UN, not from the mouth of some German conspiratorialist."
It would be just like Putin to sit on transponder codes while letting everyone keep feeding out the line to hang themselves.
Anyone remember that Korean Flight 707 which got shot down by the Russians. Tom Wicker wrote some pieces for Nation detailing his suspicions as to how the plane was purposefully sent off course to check the rapidity of Soviet responses. He didn't win any Pulitzers for this reporting, but he had won Pulitzers in the past and had a record as an esteemed NY Times oped columnist.....His reporting convincingly demonstrated just how stupid, misguided, and suspicious NY Times reporters were of the Reagan administration.
Fact is I think that none of us has any idea of what the 'truth may be. Well wrong, we have lots of ideas, but very little in the way of actual fact.
What then beyond.
Thanks for links to the photo of the plane wreckage. I see "innie" and "outie" wounds. In a macabre sort of way, the evidence reminds me of the JFK head wound "experts" who insisted that a bullet must have hit from the front and not the back.
There is a lot a stake here. I do find it sinister and telling that the photos are being washed from the Internet. I tried to make a copy of the one Deborah linked but it wasn't possible for me.
"...Still, it is not easy to visually acquire the correct aircraft from the cockpit of a Su-25, then get within the correct range and then fire. There are clouds, sunlight, other aircraft. And the Su-25 has no air-to-air radar with a search and track mode. So what could the Ukies have done? Provided another radar?
In comes the 3 BukM1 transporter erector launcher and radar (TELAR) and the at least one early warning (long range) radar which all had just been moved in the day before MH17 was shot down, and then immediately withdrawn. The radars of each Buk TELAR and the long range early warning radar whose signal have been detected by the Russians could have easily guided the Su-25 to its target, either by a encrypted datalink or even by radio commands.
Combining all of the above, here is my totally primitive and possibly completely mistaken hypothesis:
The Ukies guided the Su-25 to MH17 by using the Buk radar capabilities. As soon as he was in reach, the SU-25 fire a R-60 missile which hit one of the two engines. At this point, the MH17 sharply turned to one side and lost altitude (the hit engine would lose power and its drag would sharply pull the Boeing to one side). The Su-25 then easily closed in and opened fire with his cannon, which has a range of 4'000m, shredding the cockpit and cabin with 30mm rounds. Had the pilot of the Su-25 failed to catch with MH17 or if the R-60 missile had failed, the Buks on the ground were ready to shoot, but they probably did not have to. Once MH17 was clearly destroyed, the pilot of the Su-25 could have easily landed anywhere in the Ukraine without drawing any attention.
This was a good plan, but it failed to take into account the sharp turn made by MH17 which instead of continuing on its path towards Russia turned around and fell into a contested by Resistance-controlled field.
One more thing: if my hypothesis is correct and the first impact on MH17 was from a rather small R-60 missile (3kg warhead) into an engine, the flight deck did probably not suffer an immediate and catastrophic depressurization. If so, the pilots would have had the time to report an explosion. This is why the recordings of the Kiev ATC were seized by the SBU and why the result of the analysis of the flight recorders takes so much time: the Empire needs to wipe away the recording of the pilots' last words. Conversely, if MH17 had been destroyed by a BukM1 missile (70kg warhead) the depressurization would have been immediate and catastrophic. The problem with wiping the flight recorders is that if the pilots had the time to send a mayday then it would have been recorded not only by the USA and Russia, but by at least two more West European countries..."
The Saker
I do find it sinister and telling that the photos are being washed from the Internet.
The photos aren't being removed. Found two of them still at their original sites -- see here and here.
The text accompanying the second one says:
"It is becoming increasingly clear that it was indeed a rocket that was responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. The New York Times today published photographs of the wreckage riddled with holes that experts say offer further proof of a rocket strike.
Two New York Times reporters discovered a piece of wreckage a few kilometers from the crash site. The piece was analyzed by defense analyst Reed Foster from IHS Jane’s. The expert says that the damage visible on the piece is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, which is a type of missile that American officials have already said was the likely weapon used. This type of missile, known as Buk in Russia, was designed to destroy fast-moving military aircrafts at high altitudes.
The holes are uniform in size and shape, and show paint blistering on the outside, and the aluminum bending inwards, which indicates that high-velocity shrapnel hit the plane externally. According to Reed Foster, the likely explanations are either engine explosion or an exploding missile."
Something else to consider -- MH17 propaganda: Russians fed conspiracy theories about crash
This is my favorite:
"The fact that the plane fell is an American provocation," firebrand member of Parliament Vladimir Zhirinovsky told Vesti FM radio station. "They always do everything possible to blame Russia. It's possible that there were corpses that were placed ahead of time in the seats of the plane."
The holes are uniform in size and shape, and show paint blistering on the outside, and the aluminum bending inwards, which indicates that high-velocity shrapnel hit the plane externally. According to Reed Foster, the likely explanations are either engine explosion or an exploding missile."
I trust my own eyes as for uniformity. The holes are not uniform. The "innies" are smaller than the "outies" (again like the JFK conspiracy). Perhaps two different sources for the two types of holes?
Chick, would it be like an exit wound being larger than the entry wound?
Gang o' mine, I am blowing this pop stand for a long week-end...family reunion time. Cheers :)
Saying good-bye is nice. It beats disappearing in the middle of nowhere. Which is an awful thing, regardless of who shot whom.
I won't say those holes weren't not caused by bullets. However, an SU-25 fires 30mm rounds. Those are not 30mm holes. 30 caliber maybe, but not 30mm.
Any piece of metal that lies around on the ground here will soon be filled with bullet holes, just sayin'.
And my guess is that a war zone is slightly less civilized than my neighborhood.
Slightly...
I just read on-line that it was shot down by a bagel.
Suckerpunch.
Memo to self: Read to the end.
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