Saturday, August 2, 2014

Operation Protective Edge...time to shut it down?

"Israel has fought four major wars in the last eight years, including the Lebanon War of 2006 against Hezbollah and three devastating wars against Hamas in Gaza from late 2008 to the present (not counting several smaller operations from 2006 to 2008). It has assassinated Iranian nuclear scientists and bombed sites in Syria, Lebanon, and Sudan over the same time period, just as it has continually agitated for U.S. military strikes against Iran’s nuclear infrastructure...

-National Interest


"12 Signs It’s Time to Get Out of Gaza


1. Your enemy refuses to protect its people. Normally, if you invade a country and pound the daylights out of it, you can expect its government to seek, or at least accept, a cease-fire to stop the bleeding. Not here. Hamas has refused to endorse or honor a simple cease-fire despite the ridiculous imbalance of casualties.

Israel argues, correctly, that Hamas doesn’t care about Gazan civilians. Hamas also seems fragmented, unable to make decisions. Arab governments aren’t stepping in, either—they seem to hate Hamas more than they love Gazans. But the absence of competent advocacy for Gazans isn’t a reason to keep shooting. It’s a reason to stop. When your enemy shows no mercy for its own people, that responsibility falls to you.

9. Your eldest statesman says it’s time to stop. A week ago, Shimon Peres stepped down after seven years as Israel’s president. The job is ceremonial, but Peres has stratospheric prestige, having served as prime minister in three different decades. On Wednesday, he visited wounded Israeli soldiers and praised them for fighting Hamas terrorists “who have no respect for human lives.” But he also concluded that the war had “exhausted itself” and “now we have to find a way to stop it.” For this, Israel’s housing minister called Peres’ remarks “unacceptable” and accused him of undermining military morale.

10. Your army hints that it’s time to stop. On Tuesday, an anonymous “high-ranking military official” told Israeli reporters that “the political leadership must decide now—either we push deeper [into Gaza] or we backtrack.” He cautioned that “we won't be able to take out every tunnel” and added (in a country where polls overwhelmingly favor further prosecution of the war) that “our responsibility is to lead the offensive to where it needs to go, not to where the public wants.” That sounds like a warning that the wise course, at this point, is to get out.

12. The West Bank is boiling. So far, the war has been confined to Gaza. But Hamas has been doing everything possible to inflame anger in the West Bank. Over the last two weeks, the Palestinian Ma’an News Agency has tracked an increase in “armed attacks on Israeli military sites and settlements in the West Bank.” If Israel doesn’t end one war soon, it may soon be facing two."

-Slate

208 comments:

1 – 200 of 208   Newer›   Newest»
deborah said...

I don't have a dog in this hunt. They are both crazy.

deborah said...

Then Israel has no balls. Just get it the fuck over with. Why don't they?

Lydia said...

They're both crazy? I suggest you read this interview with Amos Oz, Israel's most prominent peacenik . It starts with these two questions by Oz:

Question 1: What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?

Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?


Then later, this:

The present hostilities will only stop, unfortunately, when one of the parties or both of them are exhausted. This morning I read very carefully the charter of Hamas. It says that the Prophet commands every Muslim to kill every Jew everywhere in the world. It quotes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [anti-Semitic diatribe - the ed.] and says that the Jews controlled the world through the League of Nations and through the United Nations, that the Jews caused the two world wars and that the entire world is controlled by Jewish money. So I hardly see a prospect for a compromise between Israel and Hamas. I have been a man of compromise all my life. But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'

ricpic said...

They're like gnats, these lefties at Slate and National Interest. How furious the gnats will become as Israel not only shuts down the present threat but tightens its blockade of Gaza so that that paragon of peace, the UN, won't be nearly as capable of resupplying its muslim killer pets in future.

chickelit said...

deborah said...
Then Israel has no balls. Just get it the fuck over with. Why don't they?

Restrain and decency I imagine, plus a hard-nosed reckoning of what would happen in a hyper-polarized world if they used overwhelming force to annihilate Ham-ass. It's the same thing that halted Clinton from taking out bin Laden. Col. Kurtz expressed it best in "Apocalypse Now": chirbit

The polarization is felt over here: it's abundantly clear that Kerry, Obama, and a host Hamas-sympathizers are trying to play both sides.

My own opinion was poisoned in high school by a US history teacher who insisted that the original UN mandate was grossly unfair. Yes, she was a Palestinian. She probably hated Jews too. What else is new? My opinion hasn't evolved much while that of those around me has.

The Dude said...

As the cartoon reads "Kill all the Jews!"

Kerry to Israel "Can you meet them halfway?"

Fuck Kerry, that turncoat bastard, and his terrorist appeasing lily-livered bullshit.

Anyone who cannot distinguish the difference between Israel and Hamas is not very moral or bright.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Is there some reason why the U.S. can't sell Israel a bunch of drones?

chickelit said...

deborah said...
I don't have a dog in this hunt. They are both crazy.

I don't know anybody deployed in Israel at the moment. It's easy to say I don't "have a dog in that hunt" too. But I still believe that deep down, the Palestinians are unilaterally devoted to the destruction of Israel. I did learn that first hand, here in America.

Trooper York said...

Well you keep petting one dog.

Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the murder of the Jews.

A Muslin can live in peace and security in Israel. A Jew or a Christian would be persecuted at best or murdered at worst.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

You know what?

You should delete this post.

It makes you look really stupid.

Trooper York said...

Or you could sign the post "Cedarford."

chickelit said...

Fuck Kerry, that turncoat bastard, and his terrorist appeasing lily-livered bullshit.

It's still appalling to me that nearly half the country wanted to see that man be President and Con-John Edwards as his VP. Simply discouraging to think about.

To those who will inevitably counter that Palin was a worse VP pick, consider the characters of John Edwards and Sarah Palin.

deborah said...

Trooper, has Israel made their point and should they retreat till the next time?

Lydia, the first thing I would do is make sure he's undernourished and then I would take over a section of his back yard to build a shed. What would you do?

chickelit said...

Trooper York said...
You know what?

You should delete this post.

It makes you look really stupid.

August 2, 2014 at 4:34 PM


I disagree, Troop. She's not out there killing people. I'd rather learn how she and millions of others changed.

ricpic said...

You have to ask yourself whether the world would be in better or worse shape (and by that I mean whether WE would be safer or less safe) if we had dropped the big one, to quote Randy Newman, after 9/11? I think we'd be better off. If Mecca and Medina were now glass and we had shown the muzzies that WE were the strong horse, I think they'd have gotten the message and the world would be in much better shape. Of course we didn't do it. And the better class of people will NEVER do it. They'll never allow it. And things will get worse and worse for US. Same holds for Israel. Deb says "Just get it the fuck over." That can only be done by dropping the big one. And then Deb would call the Israeli leadership monsters. So they won't drop the big one. And the problem won't be solved.

deborah said...

Chick, are the Kurtz and the Shouting Thomas chirbits actual posts? If so, who made the Kurtz comment?

Aridog said...

I have friends in Israel. They live there. I hear from at least one of them every single day. No one is asking for the IDF to stop, and the IDF is composed of their adult children. It is heart rending and gives me a sense of how my mother felt when I shipped out long ago.

One question: If Hamas never fired another rocket or sent another bomb in to Israel by any means, what would happen?

AllenS said...

Eric the Fruit Bat said...
Is there some reason why the U.S. can't sell Israel a bunch of drones?

I used to do this kinda stuff for a living, a long time ago.

If you want to solve the problem, you aim at each one of their foreheads, and shoot.

Don't talk about it, shoot.

deborah said...

What good would drones do?

deborah said...

I don't know, Ari.

William said...

I don't think there are any good options, not just for Israel but for anyone in the Middle East. However, although two alternatives can both be bad, they cannot both be worse. Perhaps at some level of misery, Hamas will say this isn't worth it, I wouldn't bet on it, but it could happen. Germans are no longer into dueling scars and the Japanese aren't 100% into the way of the Bushido. Bombing campaigns do change people's behaviors.

Aridog said...

deborah said...

I don't know, Ari.

[vis a vis Hamas never again bombing or firing rockets in to Israel.]

Really? Somehow that sounds disingenuous. As if you believe Israel might continue attacking Gaza anyway. Rather than becoming the best business partner the Gazans ever had...which they have already proven in many ways, not the least by collecting taxes for Gaza and administering the proceeds. The only time this fiduciary assistance stops, temporarily, is when the rockets and bombs fly.

Try again...the answer is v-e-r-y easy.

chickelit said...

deborah said...
Chick, are the Kurtz and the Shouting Thomas chirbits actual posts? If so, who made the Kurtz comment?

It was supposed to sound like Marlon Brando in "Apocalypse Now" (1979):

I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror... Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces... seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment! Because it's judgment that defeats us.

ricpic said...

Ari - Peace. Peace would happen.

But we both know it's a fantasy that Hamas will ever renounce its reason for being.

Unknown said...

The only way this ends is when the Palestinians stop it.
*insert Lydia's post.* The insanity will not stop because the Pali's are insane, the left believe lies, and the world is still filled with a lot of anti-Semitism.

Aridog said...

Deborah....as I suggested, think about it. What AllenS said above is accurate, that is the alternative to refusing cessation of more bombs in malls or restaurants and rockets over towns and cities. Some us were in that business long ago. We are not fantasizing.

Keep up the rocket attacks and tunneling and the solution is to kill every last hostile fanatic and try to tell them apart from the innocent, but if cloaked, fuck it, kill them all.

Or Hamas could just stop the rockets, the bombs, and the tunnels.

Lydia said...

Perhaps at some level of misery, Hamas will say this isn't worth it...

Misery? For whom? Don't think for Hamas itself, since, as Fatah has informed us, there are 1,700 millionaires among Hamas members.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Trooper York said...
You should delete this post.

It makes you look really stupid.


It is naive to call someone names simply for not falling into lockstep with Netanyahu. As the piece notes, his views are not universally accepted even in Israel. Israel is a country like any other, which makes good and poor decisions and acts in its own interests to the exclusion of our interests on occasion. No country has been promoted to sainthood yet, and none ever will be. Some skepticism of the motives and intelligence of all politicians seems appropriate.

Lydia said...

Fatah link

Unknown said...

When the other side is pure terror, hate and death-cult, I don't need to comb over the subtleties and moral equivalences of so-called imperfect leaders.

AllenS said...

All people will respect you, when they know you will kill them if they don't respect you.

Once a protocol that your enemies understand that you have, then, and only then, can you proceed to ensure your survival.

AllenS, protocol enforcer.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Trooper, has Israel made their point and should they retreat till the next time?

Do you think this is some sort of a civil debate? Where sides make points and then retire to see who wins? Are you really this out of touch? This is a WAR for survival. In a war you don't retreat and allow your enemy the opportunity to regroup and rearm.

If there IS a point to make it is this. Israel has a right to protect itself and to protect its own citizens against a mob of unreasoning slavering savages. That they are using the restraint that Chickelit refers to shows that the Israelis are NOT a pack of slavering savages but are trying to win with as little citizenry death as possible.

The other point is that it is NOT possible to kill Hamas without killing citizens, so at some "point" the Israelis should just land level the whole area and kill the vermin that is infesting the area.

They are trying to win against Hamas and still retain their humanity and not create WWIII beginning in the Middle East. Good luck with that.

Geeze. When the shit hits the fan, I know who I don't want on my side.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Question 1: What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?

Pray to God for the soul of his innocent child and shoot to kill to protect my innocent children.

Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?

Move my children out of immediate danger and with the help of the rest of my family, blow up not only the tunnels but my neighbor's house as well so that he has no place to begin digging new tunnels. A little poison gas in the tunnel might be a good idea too.

Trooper York said...

How is it in our interest if Hamas survives?

I did not call Deborah stupid ARM. I said this post makes her look stupid.

However your post brands you an idiot of the first water.

Trooper York said...

Hamas are terrorist murderers who want to kill every Jew and most Christians in the Middle East. They need to be destroyed root and branch by any means necessary.. We should not stand in the way of the IDF doing what needs to be done.

Never again.

Trooper York said...

I am sorry if that offends fans and supporters of terrorist like Barack Obama and ARM.

chickelit said...

Troop, we don't yet know if Obama is in it for the mullah or the moolah.*

*h/t: amba12

edutcher said...

Once you have your hands on the enemy, you don't let go.

You keep pounding him.

The Gospel According to Hiram Ulysses Grant.

The only good one is a dead one

The Gospel According to Philip Henry Sheridan.

The more we kill this year, the fewer we have to kill next year.

The Gospel According to William Tecumseh Sherman.

The hook here is that the Israelis don't have a manpower edge, which leads us to

Ah gits thar fustest with the mostest.

The Gospel According to Nathan Bedford Forrest.

The Dude said...

Bruce Catton writes: "Do not, under any circumstances whatever, quote Forrest as saying 'fustest' and 'mostest'. He did not say it that way, and nobody who knows anything about him imagines that he did."

edutcher said...

Well, that's the way it's gone down in history.

Would you prefer, "Come on, you Wolverines"?

The Gospel according to George Armstrong Custer.

deborah said...

ricpic:
"Ari - Peace. Peace would happen."

I don't see that happening. When would Israel give them the rights to patrol their own shores, or go freely in and out of borders? They've been kept like animals in a cage, purposely undernourished, etc. You treat people like animals, they start to act like animals.

Ari, what would happen if Israel shared water equally with Gaza and WB, and returned all of the seized lands, and made WB completely contiguous, and made a three-lane corridor between Gaza and WB?

Lydia, your link doesn't talk about the rampant corruption inside the Israeli government or who benefits from 'mowing the lawn every few years.

The three teens who were murdered were known to be dead, but Netanyahu purposely drummed up hope and suspense 'looking for them. It is a complete head game on both sides.

edutcher said...

deborah said...

I don't see that happening. When would Israel give them the rights to patrol their own shores, or go freely in and out of borders? They've been kept like animals in a cage, purposely undernourished, etc. You treat people like animals, they start to act like animals.

This started 65 years ago when the Russkies talked the Palis into leaving their homes in Israel so the Arabs could go in and slaughter the Jews. When it didn't work out, the Palis were bottled up in camps by their Arab brothers, not the Israelis.

Yes, they are acting like savages, but they, and their Arab brothers, are the ones at fault.

Moslems living in Israel are freer and safer than in any Arab country, but the people running the terrorist outfits don't want them free and safe, just under their thumb.

So the Israelis fight.

The Dude said...

Ed, do some reading. Y*nkees wrote the history so it was not in their best interest to portray any southerner as literate.

deborah said...

Ari @ 5:35, yes I think it's time to quit with the cat and mouse game that plays with the minds of the Israeli citizens. Go in for once and finish the job.

But they won't. It's more fun and better politics to launch a fun operation, like Operation Cast Lead (named for a children's Hannukah song about cast-lead dreidels).

And I doubt they would like to pay the cost in dead soldiers it would take. That might sting come election time.

deborah said...

"This is a WAR for survival. In a war you don't retreat and allow your enemy the opportunity to regroup and rearm."

See my last comment. That's what they've been doing for a while now. The '06 Lebanon war was launched on the pretext of two soldiers being kidnapped. It's for when they're in the mood.

And just so you know, my shit-hits-the-fan camp would kick yours to kingdom come.

Lydia said...

Trippin' with deborah through Mondoweiss world is not fun.

deborah said...

Two sides to every story, Lydia.

chickelit said...

edutcher said...
Well, that's the way it's gone down in history.

Would you prefer, "Come on, you Wolverines"?

The Gospel according to George Armstrong Custer.


My GGGrandmother was 2nd cousins with Custer. Stop dissing my family!

edutcher said...

Sixty Grit said...

Ed, do some reading. Y*nkees wrote the history so it was not in their best interest to portray any southerner as literate.

I've done plenty of reading and I don't recall any Yankees making Robert E Lee, Albert Sydney Johnston, Stonewall Jackson, JEB Stuart, or Joe Johnston sound at all illiterate.

Rabel said...

Saletan's article in Slate mentions the rocket/missile attacks in his first sentence than forgets about them. He has to or his listicle wouldn't make any sense at all.

Deb, Hamas is deeply embedded within the population of Gaza. To some extent they are the population of Gaza. Going in and finishing the job once and for all isn't really feasible. All Israel can hope to do is degrade their capability. That's what they're doing.

Your comment about a "fun operation" is beneath you but I can understand the frustration.

Trooper York said...

Seriously!

deborah said...

"Going in and finishing the job once and for all isn't really feasible."

Do you have a cite for that? I'm under the impression they don't want to pay the actual cost in lives or politically, but I'd be interested to see your argument laid out. Their population is about eight million within which is this distribution:

15-24 years: 15.7%
(male 628,205/
female 599,871)

25-54 years: 37.8%
(male 1,508,860/
female 1,443,898)

There are 1.8 million Gazans.

"Your comment about a "fun operation" is beneath you but I can understand the frustration."

I'm referring to the politicians playing games. What do they have to lose ginning up emotions?

deborah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
deborah said...

LOL!

edutcher said...

deborah said...

Going in and finishing the job once and for all isn't really feasible.

Do you have a cite for that? I'm under the impression they don't want to pay the actual cost in lives or politically, but I'd be interested to see your argument laid out. Their population is about eight million within which is this distribution


Israel has never had the numbers for any kind of war of attrition. They rely on technology, discipline, and professionalism to get it done. They can bleed them and set them back a few years, but a real slugging match isn't going to work for them.

You want to go in and wipe 'em out so they'll never make war again, you need the Army commanded by Ulysses Grant or George Marshall.

Rabel said...

Deb, the argument is simple. They can't identify militants unless they're actually shooting at them. It is the same problem we had in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Israelis don't have the option of leaving.

This will still be going on 50 years from now unless the terrorists get a nuke.

Rabel said...

Ed, I'm thinking more Genghis Kahn or Tamerlane.

chickelit said...

Lydia said...
Trippin' with deborah through Mondoweiss world is not fun.

I had no idea such a website existed. What place to compile a list of celebrities to boycott and bad mouth.

chickelit said...

I'm referring to the politicians playing games. What do they have to lose ginning up emotions?

Elections, I suppose. Call me naive.

deborah said...

Thanks Ed and Rabel.

I get that this is life. The original Caliphate took land from whoever, whoever else took it back. I just tire of the noble Israeli bullshit.

Their president stepped down and the article said the army was hinting it was time to withdraw.

Oh well, thank you all for a good conversation :)

deborah said...

Naive!

Rabel said...

Thanks, also.

XRay said...

Just got in, so just read up.

"I just tire of the noble Israeli bullshit."

Then don't have it in your mind that it is noble. It's survival. Which most often is the furthest from noble as you can get. As it should be, to my mind at least.

"They are both crazy."

More discernment here would be a good thing.

There's physically/psychologically crazy that you're backed into a corner by a honey badger, with no good choices, except to go crazy. Then there is crazy that you're an ideologically driven idiot. The two are not the same. Nor should any equivalence be drawn, in my opinion anyways.

Though, to be sure, I appreciate that the conversation was started.

This isn't just a local issue, whether Gaza or West Bank, how the larger political world reacts to Israel's survival is the future. It doesn't look good.

Lydia said...

This isn't just a local issue, whether Gaza or West Bank, how the larger political world reacts to Israel's survival is the future. It doesn't look good.

Really nothing new, that's been the case for quite a long time. Here's Eric Hoffer, writing in May 1968 -- almost half a century ago, as quoted in Tom Bethell's "Eric Hoffer: The Longshoreman Philosopher":

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews.

Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey drove out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese—and no one says a word about refugees.

But in the case of Israel, the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis.

Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world.

Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover, but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews.

No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him.

The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources.

bagoh20 said...

Clearly Arabs won't be the last to give up on Hamas. Even they seem to finally be getting it.

You know what is so compelling and funny about those "Downfall" Hitler parodies? It's that it seems like he is the last one to catch on to the truth of the situation, and you just love watching him forced to accept it. The thing is that obviously he wasn't really the last. There were millions of Germans who still didn't admit the obvious. They were so blinded by their victim-hood and tribalism that they convinced themselves that the evil being done was justified. Any people can do that, and that's what's so scary about it. It could be your own countrymen, your neighbors, or even your friends. It's some kind of curse on humanity, especially if you are a Jew.

bagoh20 said...

"Finally, on some station that shows vintage TV, there today was an episode of Flipper from 1966. Almost every minute features something that is unacceptable or illegal now."

http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2014/08/02/todays-reading/

chickelit said...

@bagoh20: urgent link

The Dude said...

Ed, at least read the Wikipedia entry on N. B. Forrest.

AC245 said...

My opinion on this post and its equivocation is summed up by an observation made recently by Instapundit:

THEY’RE LOOKING FOR EXCUSES TO HATE THE JEWS, BECAUSE, WELL, THEY ALREADY HATE THE JEWS

Dad Bones said...

My g/f and I have a running argument about Israel and the Palestinians. She'll see something on TV that sets her off cursing Israel. I yell something back at her and we eventually drop it until the next time.

Our arguments haven't evolved but sex sure has. Go Israel!

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Here is more on the Hamas operation that Deborah wants to ignore and let happen because....Joooooos!!!

“Hamas Tunnels Used To Target Israel’s Kindergartens,” - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/2014/08/hamas-tunnels-used-target-blow-israels-kindergartens-israeli-911-planned-tens-thousands-casualities.html/#sthash.s4HBr3xw.dpuf The tunnels are meant to deliver explosives, men and equipment with the express goal of taking over kindergartens and killing the children first. The people who follow Hamas are animals who should be put down.

Not only that but that moron Kerry said " Kerry actually proposed in his latest “cease-fire proposal” – none of which have been honored by Hamas so far – that Israel refrains from degrading remaining attack tunnels. This mind-boggling concept would necessarily be rejected by any sane government, of any country."!!!!

So that answers question #2. Kerry would just stand by and LET the person build tunnels to capture YOUR children and probably help him too.

Hamas is a danger to not just Israel but to the rest of the world. How many Hamas do you think Obama has allowed and even encouraged to cross over the Southern Border? Who knows? We have zero control over our borders and are sitting ducks. At least Israel has some common sense in trying to keep out the terrorists and those who state loudly for all to know that they want to destroy their country. We just sit here.....tra la la....don't want to offend anyone do we?

Third Coast said...

Deborah, the son of the founder of Hamas has been making the rounds on TV and talk radio recently. You really should do some research into what he has to say about Hamas.
Here for example.

Third Coast said...

...of course Nancy Pelosi said that Hamas is just a humanitarian fellowship of sorts, so there is that to think about.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Wow. I can't believe I missed this one.

Deborah's comments are pretty frightful. The operations have deplorable effects. I agree. The only problem is that it's what Hamas wants - the propaganda provided by the horrors of war is their #1 aim. Israel has no choice of telling its democratically governed people that they'll just live in bomb shelters, and that's why they have 90% support for this operation. Too far? Too far is when nuclear annihilation happens. In this case the aims (no matter how misunderstood by those blathering about "proportionality") are destruction of Hamas' destructive capabilities. Once their arms are destroyed or exhausted, the aims are achieved. And this time that includes miles of tunnels burrowed deep underground and into Israel with all the sophistication that these dogs of Allah should have been putting into civilian infrastructure.

You already know what the rest of the region thinks of Hamas.

I'm honestly at a point where I wouldn't care who was in charge of the whole thing - as long as it was the most liberal, democratic, civilized and rights-respecting group. How sad indeed it is that Hamas can welcome so much death, destruction and devastation that this would lead you to question whether that outcome no longer consists of the answer "Israel".

You are naive about Islam, ISIS, and the culture that is promoted by the Muslim need to have no non-Arab/Muslim peoples in charge of governing even their own affairs (let alone a country) in the areas considered "liberated"/ruined by Islamic conquest. Please do yourself a favor and read up on what these people really believe. It is not a joke. Watch Wafa Sultan. Her videos are all over YouTube. Israel might not exist, I understand, and its transformation into something more callous than we'd like is definitely at risk. But what I can guarantee you 100% is that what replaces it will be a hellhole of such unimaginable proportions that you will never forget. Maybe that's a price the West is willing to pay, but civilization will probably never be the same.

Aridog said...

Deborah....you said...

I just tire of the noble Israeli bullshit.

Amazing how you criticize a tiny country amid the whole of the rest of the middle east...as if it had no historical right to be there. Judea and Samaria...really, no right?

Says fricking who? Tell me what your rights are, here in the USA, on land originally claimed by Native Americans, most of whom we killed or imprisoned? You ready to turn over your land to some Pottawatomie or Comanche or Apache or Cheyenne? Or does the fact they attacked each other fort lands they otherwise had never occupied make a difference? You think the Sioux and Cheyenne occupied the Big Horn River area originally...or was it a Minnesota?

Never the less, Israel is willing to divide both in to Arab and Israeli sections....tell me when the Arabs have posed a similar solution? Or is it to be a total genocide of Jews? Cite me that Hadith, if you will. Sorry, in my life we've been through that...and I would willingly fight against it even today.

Where do you read your history? BTW...that historic "right" was established in 1920 and 1922 by the San Remo Accords(Jewish Palestine all lands west of the Jordan River, and Arab Palestine all lands east of the Jordan River...aka "Trans-Jordan", aka the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (arranged by the KSA, BTW)...the UN was a mere late comer to the game & interloper with it's illegal partition plan, which, however, Israel accepted when they declared independence in 1948...and were on the same day attacked by all of the Arab states surrounding them.

You have never been to war yourself...and it is painfully obvious. Seriously, face death daily for a while and see how your opinions might change. One of my friends recently had an Iron Dome intercept and blow up a rocket from Gaza, directly over her head...and it happened before the alarm sirens could even be set off. There is nothing more worth discussing with you. At least without the knowledge of what it is like to face death. It is a very simple proposition (as AllenS has said often)...you face an enemy and one of you dies. Tell me how you want that to turn out?

Don't even bother asking me why. You have not a whit of a clue. You have no concept of the San Remo Accords as amended in 1922, and just who took what from who in 1948 and 1967. Worse, you have no idea what-so-ever why the words "Jew" and "Nigger" were forbidden in the house of my childhood, the 1940's, so there's is little we have in common to discuss. Sad, but true.

You have truly disappointed me on this thread, and I cannot understand why. But you've done it none-the-less. I've given you far more credit for intelligent discussion that I've seen on this thread. I consider that sad. You can call it what ever you want. My instinct says you are confused, but my gut say you are an anti-Semite of the worst order.

Tell me where I am wrong. Understand one thing, if I can I would willingly go to Israel and be a soldier, as I once was long ago...it means that much to me. I live among Muslims and I have yet to find one who will challenge me on the subject....why? Because they are here in our country and safe. Simple as that.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Countries and people that claim their rights based on their "nobility" rather on the fact that they have rights no matter how perfect they are, are doomed to fail.

Israel doesn't claim to be a utopia. It's the people who want to replace claim to be aiming for a utopia.

The Dude said...

A core belief of Hamas is AGW.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Glad to know you've got your priorities straight, 60.

BTW, developing alternative energy is even more important to Israel than it is to us, seeing as how reliant their enemies are on black crude.

But what do those Nobel Prize-winning Jews know anyway! Making fallow fields verdant with irrigation technologies that no one before had invented and now rely on! I mean, it's almost like they're insulting God or something!

The Dude said...

Ha - madeth thou look.

I just couldn't stand the fact that R&B wrote something with which I could agree.

Good to see you back to what passes for normal in your world.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Trooper York said...
I did not call Deborah stupid ARM. I said this post makes her look stupid.

However your post brands you an idiot of the first water.


You are inconsistent here. You are something of a Rand Paul fanboy. My views are considerably more sympathetic towards Israel than Rand Paul's. I have sympathy for both sides, which are increasingly locked in a death struggle, much like the Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland. I do, however, find the mindless idealization of Israel and its actions naive and believe it has led towards a backlash that might have been avoided with more nuanced US policies.

And, before some nitwit starts in again about how leftists are all anti-semites, let's count up how many Jewish Democrats are in congress and how many Republicans (for anyone keeping scoere that would be zero). Jews are overrepresented on the left and unrepresented on the right.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

let's count up how many Jewish Democrats are in congress and how many Republicans (for anyone keeping scoere that would be zero). Jews are overrepresented on the left a

Let's not. Let us not count and categorize people by their religion, race, sex, hair color whatever.

Seriously......I have never understood the hatred or dislike of Jewish people. Can someone explain it to me?

I've known some people of the Jewish faith in my life and in college roomed with a very nice girl who was Jewish. The Jews have never done anything to me to seem out of the ordinary other than have religious practices that are not the same as mine (Catholic). Come to think of it the Protestants haven't done anything to me either :-) Now then...Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on your door!!!......I joke...I joke.

Jewish is not a race. Even if it were....so? In fact, many native (not European or Asian Jews) Israelis and Palestinians share common DNA and characteristics. On a medical level you can't really make a distinction between them. This seems natural to me since both peoples have thousands of years of history in the region. They are basically genetic cousins.

As long as people mind their own business. Go about their lives in a decent, humanitarian, thoughtful manner, create rather than destroy, contribute rather than take.....really....what difference does it make if they are Jewish, Hindi, Sikh, Buddhist or any of the many Christian denominations. Pay your bills, pick up your trash, be nice to small animals.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I have sympathy for both sides, which are increasingly locked in a death struggle, much like the Protestants and Catholics in N. Ireland.

It's actually nothing like that.

The biggest mistake Western leftists make (insert joke here, Comment Homers!) is that they impose a Western understanding of conflict, history and culture onto the Middle East. But the differences couldn't be sharper. Read the damn charter. If you don't think they mean it, and if you don't think it's full of ideas that are simply rooted in the widespread mindsets of these much more backward barbarians, you are very, very wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZXj2shOzkY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcm873G94jo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM4ODjVMc2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftb6pA6OlJI

I do, however, find the mindless idealization of Israel and its actions naive and believe it has led towards a backlash that might have been avoided with more nuanced US policies.

Dude, no idealization is necessary when it comes to the difference between Israel (and its goals) and Hamas (and its goals). You must require a hell of a lot of nuance to not see that.

I understand people are afraid of what it means to support a free (if imperfect - no free states need be utopias) state in the face of an opposition that has no respect for its own lives, much greater numbers, much greater political clout in the world and an endless well of pride to defend. But I just wish people who choose sides according that only, obvious reason would admit it. They're afraid of what our support means, and of the that we supposedly engender enmity by proposing that deaths for the cause of tribal killing are actually worse than deaths for the cause of preferring to look the other way.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

In any event, not many things could make me smile while listening to, and really like Sean Hannity. But I'm not afraid to admit that things like this really do: ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRyI7x-rpCM

Let me know, ARM, if you feel that there's a more "nuanced" way that Sean should have gone about that.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

"...and of the enmity that we supposedly engender…"

Typo.

Lydia said...

Seriously......I have never understood the hatred or dislike of Jewish people. Can someone explain it to me?

Natan Sharansky looked long and hard at this in 2004 in "On Hating the Jews"; it's here. Worth a read.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The problem with the left-wing mindset in general here is that it proposes that Israel be charged with greater responsibility for caring for Gazans than their own elected government of Hamas is.

Ask yourself how well that will work in the long-run.

Responsibility is the name of the game here. There are so many fucking ifs and hypotheticals that William Saletan pulls out of his ass that you wonder how long his intestines are. The fact is that it's a war, it's a war brought to someone's soil, it's a war that's made use of tunnels several miles in length under that soil to get to and terrorize the populace of the more peaceful, freer, more prosperous and more responsible state, and its a war that has no objective on Hamas' part other than to make PR out of its own "side's" victims and appeal to its sense of pride.

In this sense, I think they almost envy a traditional Jewish argument for sympathizing with victims. If only Hamas can make victims out of its Gazans! If only! And maybe we'll say there's a Holocaust, too!

It seems to be going into uncharted territory. I think other Arab states are basically saying to Israel, that if they want this to end, they have to treat what's going on there the way way Assad treats his insurgents. There's a legitimate argument to be had about the utility of second-guessing every strike, and ways to make it as "collateral-damage-proof" as possible. And yet, the only ones who know how to run things in the region (except Israel) seem to be indicating that these gut-wrenching internal debates aren't worth it.

That Israel just needs to go all-out Arabian dictator on these poor people (and the terrorists that many of them support).

Hamas' leader comfortably sits in a Barka-Lounger in a friendly Arab Gulf state while he watches this via remote control. Not very different from the vantage point that many of Israel's critics take advantage of.

But Israelis and their leaders are right there. For whatever reason, they're 90% supportive.

So however we bash them, however horribly we say that they're prosecuting this operation, let's at least give them the benefit and the respect of indicating to the leaders that THEY elected to keep them safe, that they know what they're doing.

Life in a bomb shelter is probably better than what so many innocent people are caught up in within Gaza itself. But proposing that they should have no say in the matter doesn't make us any better than it makes Hamas.

Trooper York said...

ARM you really are insane if you think that there is even an ounce of moral equivalence between Hamas and Israel. You like most liberal democrats have lost your way.

Pointing to extreme liberal Democrats like Schumer or others of that ilk does not excuse the antisemitism of the black faction of the Democratic Party. There are many self hating Jews who are more concerned with liberal pieties than protecting their own. They were the types who led their own people into the gas chambers. Kapo's one and all.

Even the other Arab countries in the Middle East are on Israel's side in this conflict. Egypt and the Saudi's are holding their coat and urging them on.

As far as Rand Paul goes he is an isolationist just like me. I am sure he would be happy to let the Israeli's take care of themselves instead of trying to save Hamas like your hero the Jug Eared Jesus. But if he aids the Muslim Brotherhood, arms terrorists and works for the destruction of stability in favor of the spread of Muslim fanaticism I will denounce him. Will you do the same for your hero?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Here's another guy that ARM et al could stand to give a hearing to.

This is not Northern Ireland. It's something much darker.

Let them appropriate Western appeals to indigenous rights and opposition all they want. Just keep in your own mind what they're really about.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I think it's become easier for Westerners to criticize Israel because now that America's resolved the tough question of what to do in an Iraq that we've pretty much completely withdrawn from, we assume that the decision of what to do should be just as obvious to them.

But it isn't. The equivalent of ISIS is right on their back doorstep. Not thousands of miles away in a land that it's finally withdrawn from.

deborah said...

DBQ @ 10:32 AM, your link leads to Pam Geller who links to an author who links to no one but his own article. Between the two articles he says the UN supplied the cement to build the tunnels to a kindergarten and Qatar is funding things and is an ally of the US.

"Know this: Every Purchase Order for concrete and reinforcing steel has an UNWRA stamp."

A quick wiki search reveals this 'kindergarten' tunnel was known of back in October 2013:

ynet

Please refrain from implying I'm an anti-Semite.

Lydia said...

Unfortunately, it's not just leftist Democrats who are turning on Israel. A late-July Gallup poll found that only 36% of independents found Israel's actions in Gaza were justified; Democrats were at 31% and Republicans at 65%.

John Hinderaker at Powerline finds this disturbing, as do I:
On most issues, independents poll closer to Republicans than Democrats. This is why Republicans are competitive in elections year in and year out, even though more people identify themselves as Democrats than as Republicans. But that is not the case with regard to the current conflict in Gaza. In the Gallup survey, at least, independents are almost indistinguishable from Democrats. I have no ready explanation, but it is a troubling finding.

Trooper York said...

What Israel realizes is that Obama and Kerry are not on their side. They are not even neutral or even handed. The United States has gone from being an honest broker to being an appolgist for Muslim fanatics. Otherwise why would they propose a "cease fire" plan that gave Hamas everything they could possibly want.

Obama has done nothing but destabilize the Middle East. His actions and even worse his lack of action had destabilized government after government and empowered radical Isalm. Specifically the Muslim Brotherhood.

I know my brother Ritmo despizes George W Bush and feels he got us into two needless wars. Something that most of the progressives and not a few of the Rhinos agree with. But consider the state of the world when he left office. Iraq had a coalition government with the fanatics on the run. It was not perfect but it was not the pinata it has become with the rise of ISIS. Libya was cowed and no longer a supporter of terrorism. Now it is a failed state and a perfect target for a terrorist takeover because of the direct actions of the Obama administration. Afghanistan was a trouble spot but not the disaster it is today with the USA feeling like the last days of Saigon.

What say you?

deborah said...

Thanks, TC, that was interesting.

Trooper York said...

Listen I know deborah is not an anti-semite. However she is seriously misguided and by her own admission not really familiar with the history of the Middle East as pertains to the diaspora of the Palestinians and their shameful treatment by their own brethren.

The only "lucky" Palestinians? The ones that live in Israel. There they can live in peace and harmony without the threat of stoning for wearing pants, getting raped while reporting the news or getting a clitarectomy because their father decides it is what he wants them to do. That is what you would get if Hamas wins.

How any woman in their right mind could say anything complimentary in any way to such savages is beyond my comprehension.

Seriously.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Just to clarify, though - I never despised George W. Bush and actually kind of liked him, myself. I didn't think Afghanistan was unnecessary and accepted that as long as he was acting on his rationale for invading Iraq, that good things could have come out of it and that we should hope for the best outcome.

And I'll never apologize for identifying with a leader who respects his own inherent Western civilization or for even trying, as awkwardly as he might, to see freedom as the only tie that could bind east to west.

I have my other arguments against a couple things he did, or probably more accurately, how he did them. But I never once felt that he was a bad person. A little bit disengaged? Maybe so. But that's not always such a bad thing, either. He knew what was important and I always felt his motives were in the right place.

That is, at least from what I - as far away as an observer as they come - know about him.

I liked his sense of humor also. Snickering isn't always the worst thing. I'm glad we had a POTUS who could light-heartedly snicker every once and a while. If you don't, you'll go crazy.

I like Bush. I'm sure many even in the Middle East did as well.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It looks like TC beat me to publicizing that son of Hamas guy.

Hearing what cultural reformers are up against in their region is really important for anyone sympathizing with the plights faced by people in the Middle East. If you don't know what the people who truly value freedom, decency and intelligent behavior have to deal with, how hard it is for them, it's easy to say that all their problems really are imposed from outside. But that's not the case. These people, Mossab Hassan Yousef, Wafa Sultan, are as brave as they are articulate and it won't be possible for any sort of decency or justice to reign in their part of the world until they are heard out by BOTH their leaders AND US.

Otherwise we just peer in as outsiders projecting our own Western ideas of right-and-wrong and cultural priorities onto them. It's as wrong as they say it is when we impose other sorts of decisions onto them.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Seriously, Wafa's the best.

Check this out.

Watch how hard it is for the typical Egyptian to understand what she's trying to tell him.

That's what they're up against.

That's what Israel's up against.

Don't underestimate what it does.

Lydia said...

Israel is a democracy, generated and embraces Western/modern ideals, is at the forefront of advances in science, etc. Hamas is a terrorist organization, embraces totalitarianism, is anti-West/anti-modernism, etc.

Because of this gross disparity, I don't understand how anyone in the West can not be an ally of Israel. Unless, of course, she is considered an "other". And on just what basis could she be thought that?

Trooper York said...

Those are the people who go to the Helen Thomas school of thought Lydia. There are many of them in the media and on campus and in the Democratic party.

deborah said...

Trooper, I don't know everything, sorry to disappoint. But I know of the expulsion of the Palestinians, some 710,000, partially due to their own propaganda. I was not aware of the Russian/Gaza piece.

In case anyone is keeping score, I said both sides are crazy.

Ari, history is filled with invasions. If it was okay for Israel to be granted Palestine (where Jews and Palestinians lived side-by-side), it's okay for the Palestinians to take it back, regardless of Israel's occupation of it 2000 years ago.

Ritmo, you remind me of an outrageous comment I once read when I was new to the internet: Why shouldn't the land have been taken from the Indians? They weren't doing anything with it.

Trooper York said...

The verdict of history will not be know for decades. How do you think the record of the Obama administration will be viewed by history?

It seems to me it has been an unmitigated disaster in the Middle East. There is not one solid accomplishment that he could possibly point to as something to be proud of.

Unless of course you are marking on a curve.

However I do want to say that is not very important. If Iran gets a bomb all bets are off. There very possibly could be a nuclear exchange in the Middle East. Does anyone doubt that Muslim fanatics would not set one off? Or that Israel would not retaliate?

We are in a hurricane in a rudderless ship with a captain hiding in his bunk.

Trooper York said...

"deborah said:

In case anyone is keeping score, I said both sides are crazy."


Seriously? You are saying that Israel and Hamas are equally crazy? Moral equivalence? How do you get there?

That statement is flat out crazy. Or more accurately stupid.

Trooper York said...

Seriously Little Debbie. Are you really Nancy Pelosi and have just been toying with us all this time.

That would explain it.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But I know of the expulsion of the Palestinians, some 710,000, partially due to their own propaganda.

First off, not that it helps things, but a roughly equivalent number of Jews were expelled from or fled Arab countries shortly thereafter.

Should they (and their descendants. And their descendants, etc.) be forced back to Arab countries? The idea's been floated. And obviously shot down. The self-determination thing aside, Israel provides a much freer place for them to flourish than those other countries do - and if they cared about the Palestinians, they'd offer them a part of that prosperity as well.

Perhaps you think I'm being thick-headed by continuing to emphasize responsibility. But you cannot resolve a conflict between two parties unless they have a similar way of understanding what responsibility even means.

In case anyone is keeping score, I said both sides are crazy.

Perhaps. But one side places a higher value on life and freedom and the effort with which they pursue those goals. But if you think they're just too small a country for our support of their interest in those values to even matter, I just ask that you say so. Like the French "diplomat" who called Israel "that shitty little country".

Ritmo, you remind me of an outrageous comment I once read when I was new to the internet: Why shouldn't the land have been taken from the Indians? They weren't doing anything with it.

Not sure what you mean to bring up with this. But interestingly, an appeal to the Indians came up to me just earlier today. A number of other ideas came up as well, but since you restrict it to land use, you still bring up a good problem worth exploring.

And that is that our whole concept of rights emanate from the teachings of John Locke - who did formulate not only the importance of property in advancing freedom, but productive use of land.

Ultimately some Natives chose to attack, after a few others at least allowed settlements to take place undeterred (the Lenape at Philadelphia are a good example. Goodwill went longer than the Arab nationalists will let it go).

Ultimately what continued to happen was a tragedy, but 90% of Native Americans were already wiped out by smallpox and other diseases they weren't exposed to. So their population wasn't significant enough to put up a fight. But Europe was advanced, continued to explore the seas and the lands beyond and the rest, as they say, is history. But at least the more advanced civilization entertains the idea of Indian rights, along with so many of the other good things America's brought about.

The contrast to the Arab peoples, however, couldn't be starker. For one, they ARE an imperial power, with a hell of a lot of pride invested in ways of advancing that idea. You don't get an obscure South Arabian dialect to spread throughout that much land without the conquest that Muhammad based his religion off of.

Second, those countries have had the fucking benefit of contact with us all along. In case you didn't realize, their conquest and occupation of Spain itself is a testament to both that contact and that sense of conquest.

Does that mean we were better? No. It just means that despite all the other things they learned from us, human rights and an accountable government could have been one of them.

So the comparison to Native Americans is a bit goofy. I don't see where they've provided anywhere near the wisdom that Natives here have. And as far as not refusing to conquer peoples for simply being nomadic, the Arabs have a shit history of that too. City dwellers, tribesmen… They don't care!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

(Cont… such a long time since I last surpassed 4096 characters!)

So go ahead and defend them, on the basis of principles that they haven't even yet come to value. Just ask yourself what productive end you think that could ever lead to.

Once they show that they have those values, then go ahead and propose to proceed negotiating based on them. But in the meantime you're inducing yourself to trust people on the basis of values you assume them to have, while they loudly declare day after day that they don't.

And watch more Wafa Sultan and Mossad Hassan Youssef.

chickelit said...

I say let the leftists see the ISIS photos and videos linked in Lem's subsequent post. This what Hamas would do to Israelis, given a chance. They would would probably even wear hoods if they ran the country, because they fear retribution from a higher power.

deborah said...

"Israel is a democracy, generated and embraces Western/modern ideals, is at the forefront of advances in science, etc. Hamas is a terrorist organization, embraces totalitarianism, is anti-West/anti-modernism, etc."

brain drain

"Unless, of course, she is considered an "other"."

Spell it out, Lydia.

Aridog said...

Deborah...first, yes, you are an anti-Semite, plain and simple.

You don't even know it. I find that disappointing but it is what it is in the end. Jews and Arab/Muslims DO live side by side in peace...in ISRAEL today, now.

I live among a community 90+% Arab Muslims...and very few have any use for "Palestinians" because they are troublesome. Why? Because even here in the USA they insist we hate some body...either Jewish, Shiite, Christian, or Sunni take your pick. Hell, do you even know the difference?

You simply just do not have a clue about what you talk about. Yesterday a man, newly arrived from Yemen that I was certain hated me or at least what I was, a Christian Infidel, due to his actions up to now, not his words, came to me with one of his nephews, and asked me about my grape vines and could he have a piece to graft to his. His niece happens to be one of my favorite children anywhere....his daughter, all of 8, among the most animal savvy with dogs that I have ever met, but he seemed to want them to stay away from me and "Dera." Then yesterday happened...and Judi saw it unfold dumbfounded by my welcoming of the connection.

Something in common! Instantly we had something to discuss and create a relationship with, not for politics, just for community. Not Shiite, not Sunni, not Jewish, not Christian, or even pagan, just person to person.

Like AllenS, I've killed men for little things, just for being in my way, my nation's way, but all along that way I learned how to find ways to not need to kill. ONe tough as nails General, USMC LTG Victor Krulak, said you cannot defeat ideas with guns, but only with better ideas.

Someday you will learn that. Those who worship death will eventually come for you. Unless you disarm them by a better idea.

Trooper York said...

You know when you are in a hole you should stop digging. Just sayn'

Trooper York said...

Hey I can't click on that brain drain thing. Is that referring to your brain.

Cause it seems a little swampy in there. Might use a good draining. Just sayn' baby. It's for your own good little lady.

Trooper York said...

Was that sufficiently sexist and misogynistic for you. I mean it is not like I would force you into a cliterectomy or stone you for wearing pants like your Islamic buddy boys.

You see it is not "Equally crazy."

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The link is to an opinion piece, Trooper.

Even if Israel's not an ideal place in which its citizens live (through no fault of their own), they still seem to attract enough high-tech investment and employment opportunities to outshine much of Europe.

I shudder think how much high-tech investment and employment opportunities the Holy Hamasistan will attract.

Give me a damn break.

Plus, Israelis are smart. They're starting to realize that shifting to Asia for more of their diplomatic ties makes sense when an over-indulged Europe, that takes the civilization WE'VE allowed them to preserve for granted, starts preferring the rights of the Caliphate's Dearest to Western Civilization's founders, it's time to give them a big diplomatic FUCK YOU.

Not such a bad option for an entrepreneur when your alternative is a French welfare state, struggling to maintain even its own claim to cultural superiority.

Don't be deluded Deborah. Visit Europe. Check out those protests. Check out what those immigrants have neglected to make of themselves. Check out the contempt they've rightfully earned and how they even yet still manage to use their mob-like numbers and behaviors to sway Europe's elitist underbelly.

But not these folks.

You need some more perspective.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Say hi to your new ally, Deborah!

He'll make a great neighbor! And the nature of his interest in the Paleostinians reflects yours!

Trooper York said...

Here's the thing. If you view the Game of Thrones with a historical perspective you will realize there are no permanent alliances. Only permanent interests.

The new technology of fracking makes Arab oil more and more irrelevant. Especially to the Russians. The Israeli's would be better off with the Russians as their allies. They are more dependable than the United States. They already have a great many Russian Jews in their country and their government. I could see them turning to Russia and away from an Obama/Kerry led America. Russia would welcome the technology.

Permanent interests. Not permanent alliances.

America is not to be trusted.

Ask the Vietnamese. Iraqis. Ukrainians. Just sayn'

Aridog said...

In that I'm emotional about this subject, there is something I should tell those who read what I say. Until 2012 I did not believe in God and was never a member of any religion. However, the dawn began in 2006 when a Jew, a woman I respect and talk with frequently, offered prayers in her Synagogue for Judi, who at that time was at death's door, in ICU, and going through a series of brain surgeries. She's said goodbye to our dogs, that I'd brought to the hospital to see her....actually she was telling them she'd be home soon and that she loved them. I bit my tongue. Subsequently, Judi cam home on the 21st day, and over time healed completely....her bald head grew new hair and she was with us again. I never forget who, when things were darkest, offered prayers in a faith not even relevant to me...and in 2012 I admitted I believe in a God. I was baptized on Easter Sunday 2012 and have never looked back.

Trust me when I tell you that you've never faced killing others, or being killed for no good reason, though you may have lost someone dear to you. We all do.

However it was a Jew who lead me from the darkness in to the light...and gave me to understand why I'd always tried to greet strangers rather than kill them...when killing was easier and didn't bother me very much. When you first find peace of mind you will find it in your heart as well. A Jew did that for me.

Am Yisrael Chai

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Check out how casually these guys step into an admission of what they're all about!

Great neighbors to have! Why defend yourself against them when they get violent! Just give in! Be a humanitarian!

See, Europe has a disarmed citizenry, so these twisted fucks have much greater rhetorical impunity. But language and thought precedes action. You can bet your bottom dollar that our 2nd amendment is what makes it less likely that these "strivers" shut the fuck up in our country and get on with the getting on of life, while tamping down on the hate.

You can see that this is a violent religion, upheld only by people who understand submission and never the courageous autonomy that proceeds love, the embrace of freedom and everything else that we take for granted.

I'll say it again - these guys represent the religion and ideology of powerlessness. It's necessary for their message of "submission". It's only in a country with gun rights for all that they don't feel they can use their mouths to promote what their fists so frequently fail at.

Again, it comes down to responsibility. I don't want irresponsible assholes exploiting anyone. Not here, not in Arabia, and not when it comes to these cowardly shit-for-brainses.

Lydia said...

Forget Brain Drain. The Truth Is Israel Gains When Talent Goes Abroad.

Titus said...

Why r jews overwhelmingly democrat?

tits and thanks.

Titus said...

What do those ignorant jews think that the rest of us well informed splooge stooges know.

They shoud be Repulicans. Stupid libtard democrat ill informed jews.

deborah said...

Ritmo:
"Perhaps [both sides are crazy]. But one side places a higher value on life and freedom and the effort with which they pursue those goals."

-Do they?


"But if you think they're just too small a country for our support of their interest in those values to even matter, I just ask that you say so. Like the French "diplomat" who called Israel "that shitty little country".

-Israel has bought off Congress. They have set spies upon us. They sank the USS Liberty during the Six-Day War. They have sold military technology secrets to China from weapons we sold to them, with money we gave them.

Read the wiki entry on the Six-Day War. Israel was not trying that hard to get along with her neighbors, especially Jordan who was taking pains to make things work.

Around the turn of the last century the ME had morphed into a backwater of placidity. The Brits had divided the countries up into illogical sections, for example, they had promised Iraq she would be maintained as a separate entity, but they combined her with Kurds and Sunnis. The came oil. What I am saying is it goes on and on. Israelis and Palistinians are both Semitic peoples fighting over an ancient land.


"Not sure what you mean to bring up with this."

-Because you said this at 4:23pm: But what do those Nobel Prize-winning Jews know anyway! Making fallow fields verdant with irrigation technologies that no one before had invented and now rely on! I mean, it's almost like they're insulting God or something!


"The contrast to the Arab peoples, however, couldn't be starker. For one, they ARE an imperial power, with a hell of a lot of pride invested in ways of advancing that idea. You don't get an obscure South Arabian dialect to spread throughout that much land without the conquest that Muhammad based his religion off of."

I read an interesting take that it was more likely their patriarchal-lineage structure super-imposed on Islam. Or perhaps better put, their social structure was manifested in Islam.


"Second, those countries have had the fucking benefit of contact with us all along. In case you didn't realize, their conquest and occupation of Spain itself is a testament to both that contact and that sense of conquest."

-The Islamic ruler of Spain (technically not part of the Caliphate) did not force Islam on the conquered. Nor did the Caliphate.

"Does that mean we were better? No. It just means that despite all the other things they learned from us, human rights and an accountable government could have been one of them."

-Accountable government, it is to laugh (at us). Also:

"Looming in the background is another skirmish – this one over the defense budget. The IDF has estimated the costs of the operation at nearly 5 billion shekels ($1.46 billion). Chief of Staff Benny Gantz is already leveraging the attack on the obsolete armored personnel carrier, in which seven Golani soldiers were killed, to ask for an upgrade of all the army’s APCs.

The incidents on Monday raise some serious questions about the military’s judgment. The mortar fire that killed four Armored Corps soldiers near the border could have just as easily hit the hundreds of civilians who are streaming to the area every day, circumventing the Military Police checkpoints with ease.

When families are seen picnicking at the Black Arrow Memorial near Kfar Aza, only a few hundred meters from a border where battles are raging, it seems that something is lacking in the military’s control over events. This is directly related to the use of a deficiently armored APC and the attacks on two forward command patrols traveling in unprotected jeeps near the border, attacks that cost the lives of six fighters and officers." -Ha'aretz

deborah said...

Chick @ 7:02, that's not what I wanted spelled out.

"The named scientists probably came for better access to money."

The article states they came for superior universities.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

-Do they?

"As reported by Palestinian Media Watch, a recorded statement by Hamas Chief of Staff Muhammad Deif, prepared during the current Gaza war, Operation Protective Edge, announced: “Today you [Israelis] are fighting divine soldiers, who love death for Allah like you love life, and who compete among themselves for Martyrdom like you flee from death.”

Hamas TV also chose to broadcast yesterday a statement former Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh said in the past: “We love death like our enemies love life! We love Martyrdom, the way in which [Hamas] leaders died.”"

I've heard dozens of statements like this over the years. Further, I've seen dozens of videos demonstrating as much. I could search for more, but it makes my stomach turn. Have you never seen this photo? What do you make of that?

You are pretending that the words "shaheed" (martyr) and the like don't have the salience that they do over there, and it's concerning to me that you seem to assume that everyone has the same values as you do. When leaders speak, however, popular leaders, leaders who win elections, you can conclude that the vehemence and emphasis with which they state certain words, ideas, and phrases must resonate - or else they wouldn't use them. And given your disbelief over these oft-repeated phrases, I have to conclude that you never make a habit of being as familiar with Palestinian or Arab media as your strong feelings on the issue would suggest that you should. You seem to know nothing about what's important in their culture. Googling a few videos should help, though.

When you put AK-47s with Mickey Mouse in a show with a political message geared toward children, in a way that leaves the West aghast, then it's high time to admit that you're denying away an accepted part of a culture different from yours and that values things that you don't understand. Google more of them. Or go to a country run by Islamists and ask yourself how people get the cultural support of leading with those values, if they don't already exist in that culture.

When people tell you things Deborah, sometimes you kind of have to believe them.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Also, your "reading" of the Six Day War is selective and a bit obscene. The Liberty incident is a classic prop brought up by Israel Haters all over the webs. I don't understand the incident myself. Further, what's the use of bringing it up? Friendly fire results in deaths in every war -- I don't understand why Israel would decide to attack an American vessel "just for the hell of it". In any event, go ahead and ignore the statements by Nasser, the build-up of his troops, the shipping blockade, etc. The constant infiltrations of the fedayeen between 1967 and 1948. Noting a pre-emptive strike does not prove that Israel should somehow be demonized for acting preemptively -- unless of course, you still need to disregard whatever intentions and values the others telegraphed to the world long before. There seems to be a pattern with you on this.

We spy on friendly countries, too. Hello, Angela Merkel? You are revealing what you don't know.

ANd yes, we are better and more accountable than whatever alternatives are romantically, desperately longed for over there (except more WESTERN ones).

And Ha-Aretz has reports that are critical of or question the wisdom of what the IDF does? For shame! Now it's definitely time to indict that government and society. Everyone knows that a decent, free, democratic, Western country should never do that. And never permit criticism of its own policies - unless it's prepared to equate criticism with an endorsement of the idea that such criticism is infallibly correct.

Yep. I can see why you see the two sides as the same.

Icepick said...

The Israelis ARE crazy if they believe the Arabs around them will ever relent. Arab Muslims are pretty much insane.

As for supporting Israel: Why? We supported Pakistan against the world's largest 'democracy' for quite some time, and Pakistan was awful. We've supported all manner of horrible governments in the past. We do so now. So it's not like we always support democracy and oppose tyranny.

How is it explicitly in our interest to support a nation that takes a lot of money and support from us and won't even grant us a base there, while that nation spys on us and attempts (sometimes successfully) to get our own citizens to commit acts of espionage against the USA?

I get why the Arabs suck, and why they suck worse than the Israelis. I don't get how the Israelis still don't suck as allies strictly on their own 'merits'.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Actually, the link was here.

Icepick said...

If we are going to support Israel, it should only be because it is in our interests to do so, and not because of vague notions that they're 'like us'. We've supported the House of Saud for decades, and they're right awful bastards. But we've done so out of expediency and because the Saudis keep the oil flowing. That at least shows what our interests are.

But Israel is a money pit for little return, unless you want to use them as a honeypot to attract Muslim crazies, which does not jibe with sanctimonious pronouncements about democracy and human rights.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Icepick, I nominate you as the first U.S. Ambassador to Palestine. Not the truncated WB/GS deal, but once they, you know, "liberate" the whole thing. I'm sure you'll secure a base there pronto. They'll see eye-to-eye with you.

I understand the need to be objective about separating our interests from Israel's, BTW. It's just hard to see how easily people believe this will be when their values are so much similar to ours than virtually any other country's is.

Our interests with India will probably converge more the more accustomed it becomes to democracy and the more its economy grows.

Pakistan was always important because we freaking need friendly Muslim countries and its proximity to Afghanistan and the jihadis at work there made its government's support of us crucial.

Other than that, I'm sure the complex geostrategic array of concerns you're entertaining must be as impressive as Pat Buchanan's.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Yes, Icepick - Europe's more "balanced" approach to Israel has made them very safe from Muslim crazies. They're not a honeypot at all.

Values shouldn't be the only way to define interests, but it's a stretch to pretend that America will be safe by being one big Geopolitical Machiavelli. We do, kind of, you know, appreciate it when people appreciate us. Especially when they do so for standing with people who just plain want to be free.

We can't do that all the time (eg. Taiwan. Tibet). But I don't think we're ever going to tell people seeking to preserve their liberty that these things don't concern us. They do. They should be weighed and are weighed against other things. But they don't not matter.

Icepick said...

Ritmo, you continue to be the stupidest Fuck on the internet. I haven't said squat about Europe and Israel. I don't much care about Europe's relation to Israel save this: if the Europeans hadn't been awful to the Jews for the last couple of millennia, we probably wouldn't have the current mess.

If the Israelis want their own country, they need to be able to hold it themselves. If they can't, then they're nothing more than someone else's client state, and should behave as such. They don't. They act like the senior partner in the relationship.

And I don't see how that does jack shit for the US.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well, that's obviously the problem. The Arab countries would go ballistic apeshit about it, have endless broadcasts about the deplorable conditions they'll be kept in with Anderson Cooper and all of al Jazeera's finest, and submit more U.N. resolutions to devote to their unwillingness to treat their Arab brothers better.

And the 2nd "option" would exacerbate the scenario of the first.

If Israel did that, it would be no better, and even worse, than these other regimes.

Even in Kuwait a Palestinian laborer is treated horribly. That is the price of living in a "shame/honor" society. If you're not awesome, you're shit. And the Palestinians, unless they achieve the noble aims of expelling the "imperialist foreigner", are to be denigrated in the eyes of their co-nationalists.

So it does make an impossible situation for Israel, and even easier to acquiesce to the bizarre proposal that it just dismantle itself and make refugees out of its own 7 million citizens. But I guess the world's fucked up that way. Such is life.

I don't have a good answer either.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The Israelis have no problem "holding" their own country. In fact, I think it's better for both them and us the sooner we get out of this bullshit "peacemaking" diplomacy. Let them sort it out on their own.

And they can stand on their own economically. I think the "aid" is just to send a message.

As far as arms go, we can put as much effort into boycotting our supplies to them as we would into an effort to do as much to the Saudis, Egyptians, and every other country in the region. John Stewart did a bit on this a few nights ago.

But I suspect that minuscule (to us) amount is just a way of buying off every gang in a bad neighborhood. Maybe we should cut them all off. But with all of their hands at every other one's throats, it's just as easy to argue that we're better off buying them all.

Icepick said...

We have opposed liberty for peoples on a great many occasions, and continue to do so now.

Do we support the House of Saud? Yes.

Did we support the Shah and his police state? Yes.

Have we overthrown governments solely to protect US corporate interests? Yes.

Have we allied ourselves with genocidal maniacs out of expediency? Yes.

We have done these things because we have perceived them to be in our interests. (Or, in some cases, because they have been in the interests of important donors.)

We have done and continue to do horrible things out of naked self-interest. Full stop.

Why should our relationship with Israel be subject to any other criteria?

We have one, count it, one 'natural' 'ally', with whom we share enough common non-commercial interests and values that we should value those relationship above simple self-interest, and that's Canada. Everyone else should be subjected to the "what's in it for us" criterion, as that cuts through the bullshit and gets to the heart of the matter.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The idea that we have any alternative of whom to support in the Land of the Prophet shows a fundamental ignorance of how powerful Islam is to twice the world's population than it is to its liberal Christians. It would be as difficult as a European king opposing Rome in the 12th century. Even when Henry VIII tried it three centuries later things were very tenuous. But at least he had the advantage of doing so in a time when the world lacked long-range weapons and nuclear arms.

Supporting the shah (and overthrowing Mossadeq) is a much easier policy to criticize.

ndspinelli said...

I went to the Madison Farmer's Market last Saturday. It does not get more wacky left than that. Trooper would have the big one if he ever went there. Marching were the same Impeach Walker, Occupy Madison idiots. They were chanting Israeli's are the terrorists. 'Nuff said.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

link

ndspinelli said...

Just like a conservative black person brings out the racist in liberals, Netanyahu brings out their anti-Semitism.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

link

Deborah, what do you have to tell me that he can't tell me?

deborah said...

Ritmo, as far as the Six-Day War, read the entire wiki article, Israel was no creme-puff. They pushed as much as the others.

Read about the Liberty. I'm not interested in your attempt to shame me because of my failure to fall in line with the majority here.

My entire point is that when you push a region long enough...British rule; 1948; 1953 (Iran overthrow by CIA); 1975-1990 (Lebanese Civil War: "Before the war, Lebanon was multisectarian, with Sunnis dominating the coasts, Shias dominating the south, while the government of Lebanon had been dominated by Maronite Christians.[6][7] The link between politics and religion had been reinforced under the mandate of the French colonial powers from 1920 to 1943, and the parliamentary structure favored a leading position for the Christians. However, the country had a large Muslim population and many pan-Arabist and Left Wing groups which opposed the pro-western government. The establishment of the state of Israel and the displacement of a hundred thousand Palestinian refugees to Lebanon changed the demographic balance in favor of the Muslim population.")...you get things you did not bargain for.

Things as they stand today did not occur in a vacuum.

Icepick said...

If Israel doesn't need our aid, then cut them off. Surely we can spend it differently.

If Israel doesn't need our support, then why are we wasting time, money and prestige supporting them?

And I never mentioned anything about a boycott of Israel, either from buying their products or selling them ours, including our weapons. If Israel wants to buy our weapons, fine. As long as we sell them outdated stuff that so they can't turn around and sell it to the Chinese. It's not like that hasn't been a concern.

If Israel can stand on its own feet, then we don't need to stick our neck out for them.

And I will note that neither you nor anyone else, I believe, has bothered with the fact that Israel conducts very aggressive espionage against the US. That isn't the act of a friendly nation, as the Germans have come to realize.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I'm rightly shaming your interest in dredging up a mishap or whatever it was to paint a free state as a pariah. You know that's what you're trying to do.

Yep. They're imperfect. Maybe they should instead subscribe to whatever advice and counsel and ideological or theological insight you want to provide them so that they can become perfect in your eyes. Especially after you spend all that time traveling through and reading up on what occurs every day in the Middle East.

Again, you can't tell me anything that the son of one of Hamas' founders can't tell me. But then, he seems to think there are other things that matter in telling the story of what occurs there than sanctimony.

I guess that makes you better than him.

But to me, you sound like those ridiculous nattering leftists Mr Spinelli reminds us of as they clamor and bang pots and find responsible people and parties to envy and demonize. The right-wing is right about this.

But if that fails to convince, by all means -- bring up that U.S. vessel. You remind me of the people on YouTube who go on about the conspiracy of Europe's Jews having a fraudulent origin in Turkestan, or whatever. But the good thing about conspiracists, unlike militaries, is that they're never wrong.

I wish I could be, like you, never wrong. Maybe that's something you can one day teach to me.

Icepick said...

Ritmo, you stupid fuck. We have been and continue to be on all sides in the middle east. If we support the current Iraqi government in their battle with ISIS, or ISIL, or IS, or whatever the fuck they're calling themselves these days, that means we are de facto allying ourselves with the Iranians and al Qaeda all at once. Good job!

As it is, we have been allies with the Saudis, and they're the biggest backers of al Qaeda. We have done so because they have oil that we want to hit the market, and oil money to spend.

My personal preference after 9/11 wouldn't have been to turn the Arab world into glass and then ask the Japanese to develop the robots needed to extract the oil. But, that isn't going to happen because not many people want to admit that this is the only real solution to Islam vs. what we call liberal democracy.

So instead we will piddle around and play games.

But if that's what we're going to do, we need to play the fucking game to win as much as we can. That means looking at things in terms of "what's in it for us?"

So, what's in it for us, in material and diplomatic terms, to support one small country in the middle east at the expense of damaging our relations with several larger, more important countries? Especially given that the Israelis aren't giving us anything substantial in return?

As for the usual claim that anyone that doesn't praise Israel in all things is an anti-Semite: that's no different than the claims of the race hucksters like Crack or Obama that claim that not kissing all black asses (and slipping their assholes some tongue) is the same as being a Klansman. Or gays complaining that not supporting gay marriage is the same as wanting all gays stoned to death.

It's bullshit in those cases, and it's bullshit now. So, Spinelli, Trooper, Ari and the rest, you're no different than Crack or Obama. Congratulations.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Icepick said...
We have one, count it, one 'natural' 'ally', with whom we share enough common non-commercial interests and values that we should value those relationship above simple self-interest, and that's Canada.


I would include Britain, Australia and New Zealand in that alliance, all of which are more similar to Canada than Canada is to the US. The predominantly anglophone countries are genuine allies and very little daylight passes between them on most issues. This does not mean, of course, that they are always in agreement with US policy.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

...you stupid fuck…

Good way to start off a persuasive argument, Pickie. That must be the secret to your success.

I'm off to sleep. My personal responsibility for the complexity of the world's problems awaits examination until another night.

ليلة سعيدة

deborah said...

"I wish I could be, like you, never wrong. Maybe that's something you can one day teach to me."

Brittle and little.

Icepick said...

I'm rightly shaming your interest in dredging up a mishap or whatever it was to paint a free state as a pariah. You know that's what you're trying to do.

They largely are a pariah amongst their neighbors. They're a pariah in Europe. That's an ugly truth, but it is the truth. Europeans who I know who otherwise seem like reasonable people are infuriated with Israel for attacking schools, and completely ignore that the schools are being used (with the UN's permission!) as weapons depots. Whether I think the Israelis are justified in attacking those schools or not (I do), has nothing to do with the question: What's in it for us?

We didn't support Taiwan to support a people yearning to be free. We supported a dictatoship in Taiwan because it helped to provide a counterbalance to the Chinese communists, and those fuckers were right scary.

We supported the less objectionable regime in South Korea for the same reasons, not because they were less objectionable.

We supported the Shah and at time Pakistan to stop Soviet attempts to expand in that region, not because those governments were the good guys. Better than the alternative? Yes, but not good, and we didn't care if they were better so long as they were on our side.

That's why we sided with Stalin. Stalin was no different than Hitler, and in some ways worse. But, Hitler was the more immediate threat. Similarly, Hitler and Stalin were allies until they weren't. (A fact conveniently forgotten by all Russians when they speak of their sacrifices in WWII.)

We had Allende assassinated, and good riddance. But it had nothing to do with supporting freedom, so much as opposing communism.

It isn't about who the good guys are, or who the bad guys are. The Israelis are better than the Arab pukes around them. Saying that is not the same as saying we should support them with carte blanche.

Maybe we should support them. Then make the case based on our actual interests, not a bunch of bullshit sloganeering. Save that crap for the rubes who've not bothered to pay attention to either the news or read any history.

Instead tell me how Isreal provides military support by allowing us to place bases in Israel. Oops, they don't do that. Tell me how Israel helps us out on the intelligence front. Oops, they don't do that, instead they turn US agents against the US. Tell me how Israel provides the world with lots of oil. They don't do that either, but they may be onto something, so get back to me later.

Telling me they're a democracy doesn't me shit. We didn't stand up for the Hungarians or the Czechs and Slovaks. We DID encourage those peoples to stand up to the Soviets, and then politely watched while the Soviets smacked them down hard. Not nice. It wasn't in our INTERESTS to do so.

Is it in out interests to support the Israelis? Maybe, but no one here is really making that case. We're already in bed with the Egyptian junta, though Obama flirted with the Muslim Brotherhood. We're in bed with the Saudis and the little Gulf states. We're in bed with the Yemenese government, which I'm pretty sure aren't good guys. We're sorta kinda fooling around with Jordan.

We're just sluts all over the place in the middle east. Purely out of self-interest. Nothing else, just self-interest.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You're not offering anything more than a restatement of your emotional, ostensible outrage over an attack occurring on the wrong target in the middle of a war. That's not big, and it's not solid.

The British can't make it through a month in Afghanistan without crashing one of their own damn helicopters. I have to believe, after a while, that some divisions are just better at different things.

Mistakes occur in a war. Further, if you think it was deliberate, then get on the "They're our enemy" bandwagon. I don't think anyone does this, though. They just say, as even the oh-so-rational (if not so calm) Icepick tries to say (watch him curse at me for this), that we should look to how our interests objectively might diverge from theirs. There's nothing wrong with that.

But the evidence for taking it further, there's a very thin reed for. They're an enemy? They're horrible? OK, when does the bombing begin? And can we sanction their Google and Intel offices? Boycott the technology we get from them as well as what they get from us?

It just shows a fundamental disconnect to hate them so much. Make every case in the world that they're not behaving in a helpful way militarily - or even eliciting opprobrium. I get that and think that input is important. Or even try the route that the more enraged ones go and advocate something further.

But just do it sensibly. And honestly.

Icepick said...

I would include Britain, Australia and New Zealand in that alliance, all of which are more similar to Canada than Canada is to the US. The predominantly anglophone countries are genuine allies and very little daylight passes between them on most issues. This does not mean, of course, that they are always in agreement with US policy.

A shared border makes up for a lot, ARM. You're correct that those nations have more in common with Canada in most ways than Canada does with the US, but the border makes up for a lot.

As for being allied with the other countries: That is a new thing. Shortly before we entered WWI on the side of the British, American Navy high command tried to make it clear to the British that they were just as willing to go to war with England as they were with Germany.* Meaning, they were ready to sink the British fleet. That was about four or five WEEKS before we finally decided to ally with the Brits.

And between WWI and WWII the British very ably worked to undermine the United States military position in the world. It's funny to read both histories and autobiographies written immediately AFTER WWII and see the authors ALMOST directly accuse the British government of doing that, but never quite doing so because of the post-WWII political reality. I'll just say, it's surprising how much influence British subjects had on the US pacifist movement, in ways that helped Britain maintain its naval prominence, instead of becoming second banana to the United States.

Britain has been a rival to the US at least as much as it has been an ally through the centuries.

*See Morison for that story.

XRay said...

What a convoluted thread.

No matter it all I stand with Israel.

And Ritmo, a yeoman's job here. I suspected, well it was obvious, that you're cognitive. Glad to see you step up.

Deborah, I really don't have much to say to you anymore. Sorry for sounding juvenile. But that's how it is.

Icepick said...

Good way to start off a persuasive argument, Pickie. That must be the secret to your success.

As opposed to you calling me an anti-Semite based on statements I didn't make?

You could at least try and maintain a semblance of coherence. Or you could if you weren't so deficient, mentally.

deborah said...

This isn't a discussion because you're not reading my words. You scan and react. I didn't just say the Liberty. I also said spying on us, selling military secrets to the Chinese, and buying off Congress. As usual you want to run off at the mouth, like the time you trashed AJ about the Swedish govt link. Go to bed, "My personal responsibility for the complexity of the world's problems awaits examination until another night."

You forgot to say Tits.

chickelit said...

@Icepick: Have you ever thought about teaching high school? You sound just like the Palestinian American History teacher I had.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I'm confused. Did someone call Icepick an anti-semite?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well XRay, I've visited the place -- and other nearby places. It's hard to hate things that provide so much worth defending.

deborah said...

No worries, X.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I responded to your spying bit, Deb. Again, allies spy on each other. Repeat-- after-- me. Allies spy on each other. Obama spied on Merkel. It happens (just in that case, it wasn't supposed to be "leaked" - something that also happens).

Also, lobbying is any organization's right. And the SCOTUS confirms that donations are an acceptable part of that.

Was SCOTUS bought-off in deciding the Citizens United ruling?

You're picking on the Israelis for simply being good at what anyone else is free to do.

Tits.

chickelit said...

I must say, this thread has shown me sides of commenters I never knew existed. So kudos to deborah for posting it and keeping it civil.

chickelit said...

You forgot to say Tits.

Are you suggesting that R&B is Titus?

Trooper York said...

I am a Shite Catholic as Spinelli often mocks so it always amuses me when I get in arguments defending the Hebes. It's like all the times I was throwing rocks at the yellow school bus from the yeshiva on Degraw street doesn't matter for shit.

I just want Israel to have the opportunity to kill as many Muslim terrorist as they can. I want the US government to get out of their way and let them do what they have do. Every one they kill is one less for us to kill.

As far as the collateral damage with dead kids and all I refer you to that great American Colonel Chivington.

chickelit said...

And kudos to R&B for giving the best reasoned arguments.

deborah said...

And you are defending Israel based on feel-good Exodus propaganda. Use your brain, not your pitter-pat. They are not our friends.

Icepick said...

You forgot to say Tits.

LMAO!

deborah said...

"And kudos to R&B for giving the best reasoned arguments."

Confirmation bias much?

Icepick shut him down hard.

I was suggesting that particular line sounded Titusian to me.

Icepick said...

Have you ever thought about teaching high school? You sound just like the Palestinian American History teacher I had.

He thought Palestinians were worthless pieces of shit, too?

Trooper York said...

But Hamas is Deborah?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I will listen to you when the Jews kill 3000 of my friends and neighbors a half a mile from my house.

Otherwise forget it.

chickelit said...

He thought Palestinians were worthless pieces of shit, too?

No, she hated Israel -- tried to get us to hate it too. This was 1974-75. Man, I should so blog about that bitch.

chickelit said...

You see, Icepick, my hometown was a suburb of Madison and we were way ahead of the curve education-wise.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

And you are defending Israel based on feel-good Exodus propaganda. Use your brain, not your pitter-pat. They are not our friends.

That's nonsense. It's like saying any non-American who identifies with the Revolutionary War or what we did in WWII is not our friend.

On the liberty bell the inscription reads,
Proclaim LIBERTY throughout all the Land unto all the Inhabitants thereof Lev. XXV X"

The Lev. XXV X stands for something. It means they got that quote from Leviticus.

The Revolutionary War was also partly in no small measure financed by a Polish Jew named Haym Solomon. He's also buried not far from the Liberty Bell.

They are so our friends. Proclaiming otherwise betrays a profound misunderstanding of where Western Civilization came from.

You honestly might as well be living in Riyadh if you can't tell the difference. Your disdain for the foundational civilizations of where we get our values from in the west makes me scared to know how you come about to your own value on the ideas of right and wrong and how you go about determining them.

Western civilization is not to be underestimated. America's existence is a key part in its timeline. And Israel's rebirth is simply a re-emergence of where we got all sorts of wonderful ideas on not having a caste-based system, universal morality and not killing infants or stray wives.

There is much you're underestimating here. As you're free as an American to do. But it's still lamentable.

Good luck building a civilization capable of what we've done while pretending away the link between our values and those who, appreciatively, helped us develop them.

deborah said...

Hamas, ISIS, al-Qaeda are all monsters created by us and our dealings. Shit happens, and all.

Icepick said...

But Hamas is Deborah?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I will listen to you when the Jews kill 3000 of my friends and neighbors a half a mile from my house.


When did Hamas kill 3000 Americans?

chickelit said...

@Icepick: You're connecting non-existent dots. I told you that she hated Israel to retort your speculation: "He thought Palestinians were worthless pieces of shit, too?"

Nothing more.

chickelit said...

But I see now that I was irony-challenged.

deborah said...

I said Israel is not our friend...by that I mean their crazed government that plays us like a fiddle. Do not confuse Jews and Judaism with Zionist Israelis.

Icepick said...

Nations don't have friends, they have interests.

I'm pretty sure I read something to that effect somewhere....

...

I guess it would be unsporting to point out that the root of what we call American culture and civilization comes from the English, with whom we fought two wars, amongst other lesser infractions against each other.

Saying one nation is our friend is stupid. The US and Canada share enough interests that the concept would apply there if anywhere, and it still doesn't.

chickelit said...

deborah said...
Hamas, ISIS, al-Qaeda are all monsters created by us and our dealings. Shit happens, and all.

Kind of like how Hitler was France's fault? Fritz Haber tried to square that circle you know.

deborah said...

Thanks for the 'seem' Trooper. I'm very pro Jew and Judaism.

Icepick said...

chickelit said...

@Icepick: Have you ever thought about teaching high school? You sound just like the Palestinian American History teacher I had.

August 3, 2014 at 11:16 PM


I responded:

Icepick said...

[snip]

He thought Palestinians were worthless pieces of shit, too?

August 3, 2014 at 11:35 PM


Your reply:

chickelit said...

[snip]

No, she hated Israel -- tried to get us to hate it too. This was 1974-75. Man, I should so blog about that bitch.

August 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM


The implication is pretty clear.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Islam is a civilization.

It's one whose core concept is submission.

Taking submission too seriously leads to people not valuing their own freedom.

It also has a universalist goal and doesn't rule out conquest.

We can trade interests back-and-forth with countries who make that their founding ideology or cultural value. But the value of those interactions will always be compromised by this fact.

Israel has the opposite issue -- or as Deborah might call it -- problem.

Again, to some people, culture matters. But I guess others figure that everything we know and feel in our lives takes place in a vacuum of everything but Machiavellian logic.

This might have been the case when we were the world's only free democracy.

In a more interconnected world where we must trade and interact with everyone in order to remain prosperous, however, that is simply not the case.

So choose your alliances, or your isolations, with those things in mind.

Icepick said...

Muslim fanatics killed those people. Hamas are Muslim fanatics. Every dead Muslim fanatic is a good thing. A very good thing.

It sure as he'll wasn't the Jews who attacked us as much as some of you seem to hate them.


Yes, Trooper, keep "reasoning" like Obama and Crack. Well done.

chickelit said...

deborah said...
I said Israel is not our friend...by that I mean their crazed government that plays us like a fiddle. Do not confuse Jews and Judaism with Zionist Israelis.

Dowager Countess Grantham to Lady Grantham (paraphrasing): "At least allies if not friends"

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I said Israel is not our friend...by that I mean their crazed government that plays us like a fiddle. Do not confuse Jews and Judaism with Zionist Israelis.

Most Jews there and everywhere else are Zionist Israelis and will continue to be until the Arabs that keep agitating for a binational state prove that they love liberty as much as those Zionists do.

The word "Zionist" has been corrupted by the western leftist media. It is not a dirty word. It is a biblical synonym for Jerusalem and was a core feature of Jewish prayers since the Babylonian exile of the 5th century B.C.

It has a nationalist meaning that will not be surrendered until those Arabs hoping to take over the place suddenly relinquish their own, much shittier nationalist sentiments.

Which will happen once hell freezes over.

But stranger things have happened. Like Deborah's entry here for instance.

chickelit said...

The implication is pretty clear.

I should clarify: what set me off was your Howard Zinn-like litany of American "offenses." I didn't mean to accuse you of what you accuse me of accusing you of.

Icepick said...

This might have been the case when we were the world's only free democracy.

When was that the case? I'd like dates please. I'm pretty sure the English, Icelanders and Swiss might dispute whichever dates you care to name.

For that matter, the Founders would probably dispute that, as their main beef was that they wanted their rights as Englishmen.

Icepick said...

And I'd also note that Islam has its foundations in Judaism, too. So, cousins with us! I guess that means the Israelis and Muslims can share cultural values, too.

Is that property transitive? That might settle a lot of problems.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Oh yes, the Swiss and Icelanders. Really significant 18th century powerhouses, they.

I've been to London three times in the past year and am now convinced that both our 1st and 2nd amendments make us a hell of a lot freer than they are, and can therefore only assume that such was also the case in the 1790s.

So there.

deborah said...

No, I don't know, but I understand that between the two World Wars Germany was being crowded, not least by the Roman Catholic Church. And they were being held financially liable for WWI. Like I said, push people hard enough and shit happens.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Muhammad was a proud illiterate who knew that he couldn't get the Arabs of the jahaliyyah period to settle down and act with the simplest semblance of decency unless he appealed to the religious values that had already defined the Jews and Christians he encountered.

That doesn't mean he promoted all their values. Just those that he thought would do a conquering band of Arab nomads some good.

The rest is just lip service.

He deserves credit for recognizing the debt he owed, even if he didn't do a thing to improve upon it (as Benedict pointed out) and in at least a few respects, probably made things a bit worse.

But that's their problem to deal with now.

ndspinelli said...

Last week there was a Kristallnacht in Paris. I guess we need to translate it to French.

ndspinelli said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Icepick said...

I should clarify: what set me off was your Howard Zinn-like litany of American "offenses."

Okay, did we or did we not support a dictatorship in Taiwan, for example? How about offing Allende, or at least supporting it? Same with that Vietnamese leader. Same with our support of United Fruit.

We did have slavery in this country. And we did steal it from the Indians, in effect. (My great-to-the-fifth grandfather on my mother's patrilineal side was noted for killing the last Indian in that part of western Virginia, for example.)

We've done a lot of nasty things, up to and including this year. That's the reality of the situation. We're not, collectively, innocents. Are we as bad as everyone? I'd say not. I'd rather have our history than, say, the collective history of Russia, India or China. A lot of our sins are shared by England, out mother country. France? Hell, Switzerland gave the world Rousseau, but France really promoted him, and that alone is enough to make those countries worse than ours.

We're not as 'nice' nor as 'innocent' a country as Iceland. They're as peacable a collection of Vikings as you'd care to look for anywhere.

But all of that is irrelevant to me. I just don't care about whether my G^5 grandfather was a genocidal maniac or just a settler involved in a kill or be killed struggle. (Indians HAD shot him on a previous occasion, when they had also tried to massacre his family.) It just doesn't matter.

What matters is this: what are we doing now to protect ourselves and out progeny? Is supporting Israel doing anything positive? So far I'm getting that we're descended from them culturally so we must do everything we can to protect them even if it means our own destruction, and a bunch of goddamned drunken Catholic guilt, and claims that Hamas destroyed the World Trade Center.

That's all bullshit.

I didn't mean to accuse you of what you accuse me of accusing you of.

Which is also bullshit. No fucking better than Crack Emcee or Barack Hussein Obama, not a goddamned one of you Israeli supporters.

Good to know who the real enemies are of actual freedom of thought are.

Icepick said...

Dumb Fuck said: Oh yes, the Swiss and Icelanders. Really significant 18th century powerhouses, they.

Nor were the American colonists, dipshit.

deborah said: And they were being held financially liable for WWI.

People seem to ignore the fact that Britain and, especially, France insisted on beggaring Germany after WWI. They also seem to forget America's naked war profiteering, as well as the profiteering off Germany getting beggared. It's as though the 1920s never happened.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Lol. Icelanders had the moral luck of encountering a rocky volcano of an island that no one else was living on. But given its settlement by vikings it's hard to imagine they'd have treated any native population there better.

And as far as "drunken" Catholic guilt goes, I can't speak for that.

But I will uphold to the last breath that one of the biggest problems Muslims have is a prohibition on having a drink every now and then and forgetting about their grievances.

Is it really possible to ever make people like that happy?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

…dipshit.

Eh, this time it's for real. Good night. Too much hostility for me to care to continue with. Enjoy discussing the benefits of tie-cutting and the goodwill it will attain with fellow grievance-mongerers with people better suited to understanding that mindset.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The founders knew they were establishing something much more substantial than Ice Island or Mountain Cantons could. That's why they went to the lengths they did to write a constitution as grounded in Roman concision as they did. They were trying to revive something just as lasting, important and iconic, and they did.

Iceland never sent representatives over to Revolutionary France to usher in, with their support, a new dawn of liberty for mankind.

So sorry for leaving out the word "substantial" when referring to 18th century countries. Perhaps you could submit your objection to consideration by a U.N. panel or "International" court.

Good night. And good luck on those grievances! I hear they're the worst when they never end!

Trooper York said...

The Muslims don't want to kill because them because they are zionists. They want to kill them because they are Jews. Just as they are attacking Christians in Egypt and Iraq and anywhere they are in power.

What do attribute that to? The fact that they are Zionists?

Muslim fanatics are Muslim fanatics. They have shown who they are time and again. To defend them and take their side at this point in time is really really stupid.

Or do you want to wait until they burn down your church or come to cut your clit off?

You Hamas apologists are a trip.

Dust Bunny Queen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dust Bunny Queen said...

What is in it for the US when it comes to supporting Israel? The idea that they're killing them there so we don't have to kill them here is stupid.

It is not stupid. Hamas and all that it stands for is completely the opposite of what Western Civilization stands for (or at least aspires to). Squashing these terrorist organizations that proclaim death to Israel and death to the United States (the great Satan) IS in our best interests.

To stand by, do nothing, (or to secretly cheer for Hamas and condemn Israel for acting as any sane country would... as some seem wont to do) and watch a country that has similar values to ours, who is a democratic island in a sea of insane radical muslims is only to encourage our MUTUAL enemies.

Think of it like flesh eating bacteria. You need to cut out not only the diseased flesh but, unfortunately, some of the living flesh as well if you want to save the body.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

These discussions are valuable in the sense that the rapid resort to the anti-semite slur reveals the inherent weakness of many arguments. It should be possible to discuss our foreign policy in objective terms of national self-interest, not the pejorative and emotional terms that seem the first call for many.

It is going to be interesting to see how Rand Paul holds up when this kind of attack becomes a major focus point.

The Dude said...

Well, if part of your charter is "Death to Israel", I think anti-Semitism might be a reasonable conclusion.

But you, as a Hamas apologist, could never see that.

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