boss: How long have you been in the United States?
Leo: Since I was two.
boss: I came here eleven years ago. To the United States, you know, I got my green card, I just got my citizenship last year.
Leo: Oh nice.
boss: Have you thought about citizenship in the United States? That's really important to…
Leo: Oh no, yeah.
boss: Because that was really important for my family
Leo: Nice.
boss: We have two boys and we knew it was very important to get citizenship.
Leo: I got one daughter.
boss: How old?
Leo: Six.
boss: Six?
Leo: Yeah.
boss: Are you going to have more children?
Leo: No. A matter of fact, I adopted.
boss: Oh really, you adopted? Ooooh!
Leo: She was two yeas old.
boss: What's your daughter's name?
Leo: Paula.
The video is cued to the segment with Leo. It is the full episode of Undercover Boss, USA Chiquita Brands. I am deeply impressed with this individual, a manager who supervises the lettuce harvest. Later in the show his humanity is truly humbling. The team works with a cleaning and packing machine. The field supervisor is talking to his boss. This portion seems a bit staged, Leo must know this is not an average field worker, but it drives the point very well. They could not have chosen a better person to represent.
As represented these are the people I welcome. I do not understand why Leo has not pursued U.S. citizenship, it seems the reasonable thing to do. It seems like he wants it, and could attain it with or without help. I do not see the problem. Exactly where is the problem?
Paul Ryan the strongest supporter for a path toward legalization appears to have been possessed of change of heart somehow. Some pressure from parts unknown.
But business is still saying:
Bullshit. It never stops. Cheapskate profiteers. Unpatriotic. Such caterwauling. Collectively they have the resources to train whoever they want for whatever they want. So do it and shut up. Apparently they need to be made to train their own employees themselves or pay for it themselves. Or else wait patiently until they come along in the right numbers to suit them. Provide the education they keep saying they require and stop bending the rules all over the place to the tremendous disadvantage of the nation's working class. Step up and take responsibility and help shape the society they say that they want.
They make themselves less sympathetic too when it comes to the bizarre 99% VS 1% talk about just taking their boats and their planes and their watches that can buy a six-pack of Rolexes. It is not possible to protect ALL of your houses and all your vehicles and all your possessions all at once, you know. There needn't be any broken crystal to throw you overboard.
There may be something for Leo and for immigrant techs as far as expedited pathways to citizenship, just make sure you do not stick it to American workers. Again.
There may be something for Leo and for immigrant techs as far as expedited pathways to citizenship, just make sure you do not stick it to American workers. Again.
45 comments:
At the end the boss pays $15,000 to advance Leo's citizenship. I wondered, "why so expensive?" That would put it out of reach for poor people. That would be a serious and unacceptable obstacle. But that went to a lawyer to file Leo's citizenship papers. I hope Leo gets more help than that, if he wants it.
It is still not clear that he actually does want it.
He cried, yes, but that is for compassion.
The show depicted a man prevented from seeing his own family, separated by the need to follow work. Only able to see his family half a year.
For all we really know Leo may want things that way. He has his life going as it is back and forth. Becoming a U.S. citizen might not turn out all it's cracked up to be. He might, just might, have a thing going on and dragging the United States government into his personal affairs might be catastrophic for him. Might be. My point is the desire cannot be automatically assumed.
To the very limited extent that I can understand Chip's point here I disagree. The low wage workers that have flooded the country have depressed wages for a large faction of the population and have hurt the citizenry in net, albeit also helping by fueling growth.
The high skill workers, particularly graduate students working in research labs, have been essential to maintain research competitiveness. Talented US students do not flock to PhD programs when they can make vastly more money on Wall Street or working as a dermatologist. Nothing wrong with that per se but it means that much of our intellectual fire power has to be imported. These people are a net benefit to the country, although they also carry a cost. They facilitate the transfer technological skills to their country of origin thereby decreasing our relative competitive advantage in technology.
If there was ever a case to be made that the country is run by a small group of elites for the benefit solely of those elites it is on immigration, but few people seem willing to make it.
I'd like to enter another country illegally, and then demand citizenship. Where on the planet can I do that?
@ARM
Nothing wrong with that per se but it means that much of our intellectual fire power has to be imported.
These people are a net benefit to the country, although they also carry a cost. They facilitate the transfer technological skills to their country of origin thereby decreasing our relative competitive advantage in technology.
Who exactly are "these people"?
April Apple said...
Who exactly are "these people"?
Chinese and Indian graduate students in particular and to a lesser extent Europeans, anglophone countries and pretty much anywhere else that someone can get a decent education.
The whole idea of Leftist immigration since Teddy Kennedy in '65 is to bring in as many peons as possible to stuff the welfare rolls, union coffers, and ballot boxes.
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
If there was ever a case to be made that the country is run by a small group of elites for the benefit solely of those elites it is on immigration, but few people seem willing to make it
True that, but you shouldn't talk about yourself that way.
And you know ARM, for a fact, that "these people" are here illegally?
April Apple said...
And you know ARM, for a fact, that "these people" are here illegally?
No in general they are not. Chip appeared to be arguing that it was bad to import high talent people rather than attempt to train our own.
The shortest path to becoming a legal immigrant is a road map to the immigration and naturalization office.
You don't see lines of people trying to get into the immigration and naturalization office. In fact, it seems like the only time one hears about someone wanting to become a US citizen is when they are about to be deported for one reason or another.
Isn't there some point at which people who came to the US illegally and claim they want to remain here are held accountable for themselves? If someone wants to stay in the US, they should go through the necessary steps.
And fine if they don't want to be here permanently. Just go to and INS office and declare that as well, and get a permit or a card or whatever, that has a time limit on it.
The US seems to be tying itself into a political knot over people who aren't willing to do for themselves what millions of American want to do for them. That's paternalistic, and embarrassing for all involved.
You are the complete ideological dummy. Your sole contribution to this blog is to put off sensible people from commenting. No one wants to be associated with the utter stupidity that you display.
And you are the morning asshole who is now mimicking Althouse's take on edutcher to a T. The proof is in the chirbits I made memorializing the whole thing.
After begging all blogs on your radar to put up a post about immigration. I'd delete you if I had the power.
There is some truth to what ed said about Kennedy's role in changing immigration. How do I know this? I married into a family of immigrants.
I also happen to know quite a bit about immigration, chemistry about STEM. But I'm not going to tell the likes of you about it -- because -- you're an asshole!
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
You are the complete ideological dummy. Your sole contribution to this blog is to put off sensible people from commenting. No one wants to be associated with the utter stupidity that you display.
I know, I forgot the
/sarc.
But, seriously, folks, the Lefties need an underclass that will buy everything they say, vote the way they say, do what they say no matter how miserable it makes their lives, and still venerate them as gods.
They've got the blacks that way, but they're slowly aborting themselves out of existence (as are the Lefties themselves). So we need to import 30 million Mexican slaves.
Troll is just mad because people see through it all.
chickenlittle said...
And you are the morning asshole who is now mimicking Althouse's take on edutcher to a T.
I'd delete you if I had the power.
You are right, I should just pack it in and let SpecialEd recycle his inanities unchallenged. It's the blog equivalent of wrestling a pig in mud.
Now, now...
Invective just shows I'm winning.
ARM - can you prove your statement below is true or is it just an anecdote? I have heard many anecdotal accounts of PHD STEM students struggling to make a living.
"Talented US students do not flock to PhD programs when they can make vastly more money on Wall Street or working as a dermatologist. Nothing wrong with that per se but it means that much of our intellectual fire power has to be imported."
Repubs would be smart to confine all of their legislation and policy initiatives to one goal:
Growing the economy and firming up the economic opportunities for LEGAL RESIDENTS.
Repubs can not name one major reason to do a damn thing about immigration for the foreseeable future.
Exactly.
Their behavior is reminiscent of the old line from "Guns Of Navarone" - "He forgot why we came here."
AJ Lynch said...
ARM - can you prove your statement below is true or is it just an anecdote?
I am not sure what is at issue here. It is unquestionably the case that STEM PhD programs are filled with foreign students. I don't know their financial fates on average but there are clearly more secure paths to financial security available to US students than doing a PhD.
ARM- you claim American students avoid PHD STEM programs and opt for Wall Street and med schools- what is your proof of that?
From this article.
In the fall of 2012, more than half—54.7 percent—of all graduate students who are categorized as temporary U.S. residents were enrolled in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields, compared with 17.3 percent of U.S. citizens and permanent residents.
"Fewer qualified applicants are choosing to enroll in critical fields like engineering, math and computer science," Ms. Stewart said. "We have to try to understand why that's happening and what we can do to reverse it."
Chiquita banana?
They're like one of the key reasons for embrace of Marxism in Latin America, if I remember right. Every horror story about capitalist manipulation of societies and disregard for human lives is represented.
Not that they're like that now. See how the workers love them and how the bosses love the workers!
and this:
'foreign students make up the majority of enrollments in U.S. graduate programs in many STEM fields, accounting for 70.3 percent of all full-time graduate students in electrical engineering, 63.2 percent in computer science, 60.4 percent in industrial engineering, and more than 50 percent in chemical, materials and mechanical engineering, as well as in economics (a non-STEM field). However, the report, which analyzes National Science Foundation enrollment data from 2010 by field and institution, also shows that these striking averages mask even higher proportions at many individual universities. For example, there are 36 graduate programs in electrical engineering where the proportion of international students exceeds 80 percent, including seven where it exceeds 90. (The analysis is limited to those programs with at least 30 full-time students.)"
I don't think the general point is considered controversial.
Interesting information, but it does not account for job placement. How many of the foreign grads remain in the US versus how many return to their country of origin?
Have you given any thought to the fact that foreign students, on average, pay the full price tuition? So colleges tend to view them as a cash cow?
And the article does not prove your point- it suggests way more foreigners are being accepted into the programs. It does not prove there are fewer and fewer American applicants. Enrollee numbers do not equate to applicant numbers.
It is going to vary a lot between fields. From Wikipedia:
"Among 1985 foreign-born engineering doctorate holders, about 40% expected to work in the United States after graduating. An additional 17 percent planned to stay on as post-doctorates, and most of these are likely to remain permanently in the United States. Thus, almost 60% of foreign-born engineering doctorate holders are likely to become part of the US engineering labor force within a few years after graduating. The other approximately 40% of foreign born engineering Phds mostly likely find employment working for Multinational corporations outside of the US."
Let's take the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, for example. The government of China has contracted with UWM to house, feed and educate several dozen Chinese students annually, for the duration of their educations. Some are undergrads, but most are STEM graduate students. They all return to China after graduation.
One reason why US grad schools have a high proportion of foreign students is that our schools are usually better than other schools. Of course, another reason is that American parents for the most part don't push their kids to achieve. Follow your bliss, and all that crap.
AJ Lynch said...
Have you given any thought to the fact that foreign students, on average, pay the full price tuition? So colleges tend to view them as a cash cow?
PhD students typically do not pay their own tuition, and they are typically paid a stipend. There are some financial disincentives to hiring foreign students relative to domestic students, since there sponsors may have to pay out of state tuition for them and it is much harder to find scholarships to cover their salaries.
I think the main point is being lost here, which is that foreign grad students are, on average, are a net benefit to the US. We are the beneficiaries of a brain drain from other countries. It is much less clear how the majority of the population benefits from a flux of low skill labor at a time of relatively high unemployment.
AReasonableMan said...
I think the main point is being lost here, which is that foreign grad students are, on average, are a net benefit to the US. We are the beneficiaries of a brain drain from other countries. It is much less clear how the majority of the population benefits from a flux of low skill labor at a time of relatively high unemployment.
Pre-war Germany benefited mightily by drawing American STEM students. In the 1930's you were a nobody here if you hadn't studied there. I exaggerate a bit, but there is truth in it. Germany's chemical industry far exceeded anyone else's.
We are playing that role now for the BRIC nations. I think it's too late to save chemistry in this country -- not because of salaries or because of brain drain, or because Americans are lazy -- but because the smarts eventually follow money and the industry has already moved to Asia. The reason is environmental law.
I think it's almost axiomatic that the cleaner looking a product is, the dirtier is its making and the more waste is left behind getting to a high level of "purity." This is true of electronic products and pharmaceuticals. We don't want those industries here. Hell, we don't even want Sriracha factories here, but we pretend that we do.
AReasonableMan said...
I think the main point is being lost here, which is that foreign grad students are, on average, are a net benefit to the US. We are the beneficiaries of a brain drain from other countries. It is much less clear how the majority of the population benefits from a flux of low skill labor at a time of relatively high unemployment.
It used to be more true, ARM. But a growing number of foreign students are returning to their home countries because there is more opportunity there. In a generation or two, their universities will dominate as well.
And the monied interests behind the STEM industries in this country have already found a sweet spot: invent here, patent here, but develop and produce overseas and import back here more cheaply. It's worked for a very long time now. But eventually, the nation hollows. And then it hollers.
Let me critique myself a bit. I seem to be saying that we need to wallow a bit more in filth like the Chinese are presently doing. They tolerate more industry. I'm not not judging that or really commenting on it. What I'm complaining about is our tendency to tolerate hypocrisy. Presumably, we're all typing these words into rather clean-looking, high tech gadgets. Some of you are consuming nicely packaged pharmaceuticals, probably soon not-to-be-made here.
What I'm saying is, get to know a little bit about what goes into the making of what you use and consume.
Don't be an Ozzy: "I don't want to know about the business behind rock and roll"
Dammit, somebody say something funny...
"Unpatriotic"? Wanting more people to become American citizens is not "unpatriotic". It isn't bad for the country; it is good for the country. You think we'd be as successful as we are if we'd spent the last 200 years deliberately excluding intelligent immigrants on the grounds that they threaten the jobs of upper-middle-class Americans? Sheesh.
We do not have enough high-tech workers, overall. We haven't for a long time. It isn't a salary problem, it is a demographic problem. Even if our educational system wasn't atrocious at preparing people for STEM careers, the simple truth is that you can't teach people to be highly intelligent. They have to be born that way.
And the monied interests behind the STEM industries in this country have already found a sweet spot: invent here, patent here, but develop and produce overseas and import back here more cheaply. It's worked for a very long time now. But eventually, the nation hollows. And then it hollers.
I like the bit about the nation "hollering". Reminds me of a three-year old denied candy.
You want to invent, patent, develop and produce a product here? The only thing stopping you is your inability and/or unwillingness to actually do that. Plenty of people still do it; why aren't you one of them? Stop whining and get to work.
But a growing number of foreign students are returning to their home countries because there is more opportunity there
The main reason they return is because they can't legally stay here. The number of work visas we issue has not kept pace with the number of student visas we issue -- so naturally the percentage of students who stay after graduation has worsened.
"Immigrants will do jobs Americans wont do"
Sounds like an argument Against legalization and Amnesty. We'd better NOT allow them to become citizens otherwise BOOM they quit their jobs and we need to find a million new immigrants to "do jobs Americans wont".
Rev:
"The main reason they return is because they can't legally stay here."
I've read that the rest of the story is people simply want to go home, where family and memories are. And I'm sure it doesn't hurt to return as a success.
Most of the immigrants I know want to be dual-citizens and have a foot in both countries.
I've read that the rest of the story is people simply want to go home, where family and memories are. And I'm sure it doesn't hurt to return as a success.
That's always been true for some people, sure. But love of family doesn't explain why the percentage of students who return home has gone up. People loved their families a generation ago, too.
Partly it is that there are more opportunities back home, now, but the bigger factor is that staying here *legally* is a gigantic pain in the ass.
I like the bit about the nation "hollering". Reminds me of a three-year old denied candy.
Really, revenant? That's the best you've got? I thought for sure you'd pick up a hillbilly/Tea Party vibe and diss that.
Maybe try again? :)
@rcocean: Why did you delete your 2:31? It's basically true. The same thing is at work in SV in chemistry. I worked for a start-up there in the 90's.
@Chicken - Sorry, I can't even remember what I wrote. I just posted and went out for the afternoon.
But I'm sure you're right.
This thread had a lot more potential. Perhaps another day.
chickenlittle said...
This thread had a lot more potential. Perhaps another day.
Yes if Ed hadn't started it off with his patented inanity and you hadn't then jumped down my throat for pointing this out, things probably would have gone much better. Immigration policy is one of the few really important decisions the Federal government actually makes and no one seems to represent the interests of working people.
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