If A-Roid or Clemens get in then so should Pete Rose.
After all there are many Hall of Famers who bet on Baseball. Ty Cobb. Tris Speaker. Walter Johnson. John McGraw. Pretty much anybody who played before 1920 were definitely gamblers.
Rose just had the bad fortune to get caught and to have a personality that made people have very little sympathy for him. He is a lot like A Roid in that way. He can not admit he did something wrong and tries to worm his way out of the consequences.
He is "Charlie Hustle.' But that doesn't mean what he thinks it means.
"'Excommunicated' is our word, but there really is a 'clown community,'" writes James Taranto, who's apparently a community unto himself, judging by his use of the second person plural.
It might just be a singular second person, along with Taranto.
It's on the radio at night fading in and out, crickets heard through the open window, while you work on an advanced version of eigensmash for your vic-20.
RH is absolutely right. There is nothing better than a warm summer night while you are drinking a beer and listening to the game while are smoking a cigar and watching the fire flies fuck in the moonlight.
Phx you need some historical perspective. Are all the stats pre-Jackie Robinson suspect because so many great black players were not in the show? Nobody will ever approach Ty Cobbs batting average but that was in a dead ball era. Stats are bullshit. It is winning that counts. The playing field is leveled because everybody was using steroids. The batters and the pitchers.
Boring? Why is the pitcher coming up to bat boring? He doesn't have to hit, you could put in his place the best hitter from the bench, if you have runners on and in scoring position. Then go to the bull pen for the next pitcher once the inning is over. It's nothing more than decision time, and that's not boring. It's part of the game. Well, for half of the clubs that is.
I'm going to disagree strenuously with the idea that Rose should be excluded from the HOF.
I'll never visit it, as long as he's excluded. It's a joke. He's the career hits leader, and he played in an era when it was a big deal to hit over .300. Sure, he had a grating personality, but he played the game the way it was meant to be played -- he played every play with maximum possible effort.
He bet on the game, but he never bet against his own team. Every player should already have a substantial investment in whether his team wins any game they play. So his investment was bigger; who gives a fuck.
He was one of the leaders of what was arguably the greatest team ever assembled, the Reds of the mid-70s. Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey (Sr.), Jose Concepcion, Joe Morgan, George Foster, Pete Rose; managed by Sparky Anderson.
They might as well exclude Henry Aaron from the HOF because he picked his nose, or Cy Young because of his flatulence.
He bet on the game, but he never bet against his own team. Every player should already have a substantial investment in whether his team wins any game they play. So his investment was bigger; who gives a fuck.
The argument against this is that perhaps Rose as a manager would have done things to damage his team and players in the long run in order to win short-term bets. For example, bring guys back from injuries too fast, use pitchers too long, etc.
I don't really care, myself, but that's the argument I've heard in the past.
I once said to my dad that Rose never bet against his team, and he said that the days he didn't bet for his team was a way of saying he thought they'd lose.
Trooper York said... If A-Roid or Clemens get in then so should Pete Rose.
Wait a minute! What if Rose decided that if he didn't get a base hit and knock in a winning/tieing/meeting the spread run, he'd be better off financially with his strike out, doesn't that mean he's a motherfucking bastard -- I only think about myself -- dirty motherfucking... wait, I already said that.
I once said to my dad that Rose never bet against his team, and he said that the days he didn't bet for his team was a way of saying he thought they'd lose.
My understanding was that he had a standing bet for his team to win.
Pete Rose is no worse than many of the most famous players and managers from the turn of the century up to the 1930's. Most of them bet on games. Some of them fixed games.
It still goes on today. In the NFL and NBA that is because nobody bets on baseball games anymore.
I don't like A Rod at all, but there is something sleezy about the leak that shows he's the snitch. MLB is almost Clintonian in their destruction of their enemies.
As for Rose, after all of this, I think he should at least get a vote. If Barry Bonds and Clemens and McGwire get a vote, then he should get the chance too.
Steroid users pretty much killed baseball back in the late 80s ... At this point what difference does it make?
I have to agree with Phx here. I'm not much of a baseball fan, haven't been to a game since 1990 or so. However...what I said on another of EBL's threads fits here.
Can somebody explain this differential in severity applied to Rose versus various dopers? Who impacted more game outcomes, Rose even if guilty, or the doper's. Really. I don't get it.
Rose got it in the neck because he refused to say he was sorry. Also Bart Giamatti was involved and banned him and then he died. Fay Vincent who was a total prick on wheels wouldn't reverse it and attitudes hardened. Pete just couldn't say he was sorry because he didn't think he did anything wrong. Gambling is part of big time professional sports. You know who was the biggest gambler and loser in all of professional sports?
Michael Jordan.
That was the real reason he quit basketball for a while. So all of gambling shenanigans wouldn't come to light.
I recall going to a yankees game with a scout troop in the 50s, and a mets game at shea by myself in the 60s, which says to me that the cheap seats were still cheap then.
Trooper York ... in other words MLB bureaucracy executives are dicks just like government senior exec's. The hypocrisy astounds, wrist slaps, essentially, for still active money earners on dope, who impact thousands of games, but tombstones for retired player/managers who might possibly have impacted at most a dozen games for their teams.
Of course the owners don't care if the guy is making money. What I don't understand is why I should care. I mean it's not like every guy in the NFL is not using steroids. What's the big deal? This whole steroids thing is a lot of bullshit.
In our day, rules mean nothing. There are no rules. Do whatever the fuck you want. That's the rule. Obama rules.
Look, there was ONE rule. ONE. Do Not Bet On Baseball. Bet on baseball and you are banned for life. Period. Ask Shoeless Joe.
Pete Rose knew that. And he said, fuck you, I'll do what I want.
No. Never. He NEVER gets in the Hall of Fame. The day he gets in, they need to shut the doors and burn the place down.
So what if Ty Cobb did this or that. It was not THE RULE at that time. So what if Rose did or did not bet on his own team or did or maybe did not throw any games. The fact is HE BET ON THE GAME. That's it. He's out. Forever. Especially since that piece of crap essentially killed Bart Giamatti because of it.
You don't like that Rose is not in the Hall? Then don't blame anyone except him. He's the piece of crap who is responsible for not being there.
When Shoeless Joe and Kenesaw Mountain Landis can get up out of their graves and walk in with him, then Rose will be allowed in - by buying a ticket.
I guess Pete Rose will enjoy everlasting fame for not being in the Hall of Fame. I think Shoeless Joe Jackson is far more famous than most of his contemporaries. I can offhand think of three or four movies that alluded to him. I can't think of any that mentioned Tris Speaker.
Bender ... I appreciate your position, respect the idea of obeying rules, and gather that you are a fan of baseball. I am not a fan of baseball and look at it from the simple perspective of who did the most damage to the game by altering outcomes...PED users or gamblers....and suggesting that if one behavior is bad, so is the other, regardless of "rules", for the integrity of the game.
I've lost interest in my main spectator sport (I sucked as a player) of football for similar reasons. Big wheels making arbitrary decisions, outright lying, and demanding holy innocence of some but not others.
Sports above the High school level today is business, big business, and the goal is then to profit and succeed by any means necessary...it's only against the rules if you get caught.
It is very hard for me to be attracted to that commercial aspect in sports. Like NASCAR..once in my youth it was a race between stock cars and drivers...today it is a race between sponsors building exotic NASCAR mandated specialty cars with only exterior skins resembling stock cars. Yawn.
Here's the thing. Gambling was just as illegal in Ty Cobbs time as now. He was suspended in a gambling scandal as was Tris Speaker. They were proved to have bet on their own teams and were still allowed in the Hall of Fame. Same deal as Rose.
I personally think steroids should be permitted in baseball just as they are in football. What's the big deal? If some guy wants to shrink his testicles just to get a few more home runs well then more power to him.
Di Di Dit Dit Dot Dit....this just in: a baseball player was found to be 100% free of PED's and playing for a last place team. His name is being kept private to save him the embarrassment of being drug free.
Rumor is that he's being followed by elite MLB investigators to see if he's gambling on baseball. Can't be too careful ya' know.
I have no bad feelings for what Pete Rose did. The guy is human and he (unfortunately) got caught doing something that MLB has a major hard on about. I think they will continue to screw him on this.
56 comments:
If A-Roid or Clemens get in then so should Pete Rose.
After all there are many Hall of Famers who bet on Baseball. Ty Cobb. Tris Speaker. Walter Johnson. John McGraw. Pretty much anybody who played before 1920 were definitely gamblers.
Rose just had the bad fortune to get caught and to have a personality that made people have very little sympathy for him. He is a lot like A Roid in that way. He can not admit he did something wrong and tries to worm his way out of the consequences.
He is "Charlie Hustle.' But that doesn't mean what he thinks it means.
Of course it could be that neither Clemens or A-Roid will make the Hall. I don't think so but it is possible.
The steroid stuff will hurt the marginal guys like Sosa, McGwire and Andy Pettitte.
By the way great post Deb. You are really carrying the ball here.
Good stuff.
Althouse mysteriously writes
"'Excommunicated' is our word, but there really is a 'clown community,'" writes James Taranto, who's apparently a community unto himself, judging by his use of the second person plural.
It might just be a singular second person, along with Taranto.
Steroid users pretty much killed baseball back in the late 80s.
At this point what difference does it make?
The point of baseball is the sound.
It's on the radio at night fading in and out, crickets heard through the open window, while you work on an advanced version of eigensmash for your vic-20.
Paul Carey and Ernie Harlow preferred.
Nowadays they shout too much, I suspect.
It's been a while.
Nothing kills baseball.
It has survived many different things.
Gambling scandals. Racism. World Wars where everyone was in the Army. The Red Sox winning the World Series. Lots of bad shit.
steroids is just a blip. No biggie.
One of the best things about baseball - the stats - isn't fun anymore. The career home run list is a joke.
RH is absolutely right. There is nothing better than a warm summer night while you are drinking a beer and listening to the game while are smoking a cigar and watching the fire flies fuck in the moonlight.
That's summer man.
Phx you need some historical perspective. Are all the stats pre-Jackie Robinson suspect because so many great black players were not in the show? Nobody will ever approach Ty Cobbs batting average but that was in a dead ball era. Stats are bullshit. It is winning that counts. The playing field is leveled because everybody was using steroids. The batters and the pitchers.
I guess I'm old school. Never felt the same after they split leagues into divisions anyway.
Where does designated hitter belong in this?
Where does designated hitter belong in this?
Oh, AA or AAA ball, maybe.
The designated hitter served to allow the compliers to pad their stats. It got big bats in the line up when they couldn't play the field.
Nothing is more boring than the pitcher getting up.
Well math is just as boring.
But you get what I mean.
Belmont Club on Washington vs the world
The cuckoo clock is broken. The Narrative is showing signs of dementia.
Boring? Why is the pitcher coming up to bat boring? He doesn't have to hit, you could put in his place the best hitter from the bench, if you have runners on and in scoring position. Then go to the bull pen for the next pitcher once the inning is over. It's nothing more than decision time, and that's not boring. It's part of the game. Well, for half of the clubs that is.
Who wants open windows on a summer night? It doesn't get below 90 some nights until 3 in the morning. Close those windows and run the AC, will ya?
Well math is just as boring.
Depends on what you mean by "math"....
...
The best thing baseball has going for it is that it still has the best sound in sports: The crack of a wooden bat hitting a baseball is pure pleasure.
Oh course, the ugliest sound in sports is also in baseball, which is the sound of an aluminum bat making contact with the ball.
I'm going to disagree strenuously with the idea that Rose should be excluded from the HOF.
I'll never visit it, as long as he's excluded. It's a joke. He's the career hits leader, and he played in an era when it was a big deal to hit over .300. Sure, he had a grating personality, but he played the game the way it was meant to be played -- he played every play with maximum possible effort.
He bet on the game, but he never bet against his own team. Every player should already have a substantial investment in whether his team wins any game they play. So his investment was bigger; who gives a fuck.
He was one of the leaders of what was arguably the greatest team ever assembled, the Reds of the mid-70s. Johnny Bench, Tony Perez, Ken Griffey (Sr.), Jose Concepcion, Joe Morgan, George Foster, Pete Rose; managed by Sparky Anderson.
They might as well exclude Henry Aaron from the HOF because he picked his nose, or Cy Young because of his flatulence.
He bet on the game, but he never bet against his own team. Every player should already have a substantial investment in whether his team wins any game they play. So his investment was bigger; who gives a fuck.
The argument against this is that perhaps Rose as a manager would have done things to damage his team and players in the long run in order to win short-term bets. For example, bring guys back from injuries too fast, use pitchers too long, etc.
I don't really care, myself, but that's the argument I've heard in the past.
If they're going to put Dave Winfield in, they should put in Pete Rose.
What's one got to do with the other?
I have no idea.
There's a lot of loose talk in Philly about Charlie Manuel being a shoe-in to get a plaque on the Wall of Fame.
For some strange reason, I can't help but think that the appropriate response to that is "fuck you."
People mourn their losses in different ways, I suppose.
I once said to my dad that Rose never bet against his team, and he said that the days he didn't bet for his team was a way of saying he thought they'd lose.
And one more thing. Who the hell was Cody Jarrett?
Trooper York said...
If A-Roid or Clemens get in then so should Pete Rose.
Wait a minute! What if Rose decided that if he didn't get a base hit and knock in a winning/tieing/meeting the spread run, he'd be better off financially with his strike out, doesn't that mean he's a motherfucking bastard -- I only think about myself -- dirty motherfucking... wait, I already said that.
I once said to my dad that Rose never bet against his team, and he said that the days he didn't bet for his team was a way of saying he thought they'd lose.
My understanding was that he had a standing bet for his team to win.
Thanks, Icepick, that makes sense.
Pete Rose is no worse than many of the most famous players and managers from the turn of the century up to the 1930's. Most of them bet on games. Some of them fixed games.
It still goes on today. In the NFL and NBA that is because nobody bets on
baseball games anymore.
Wait, someone still plays baseball? You have got to be kidding!
Pasta - good comment but I believe it was Dave Concepcion not Jose.
And it is 50% celebrity factor and 50% career stats anymore so why not add Rose?
I don't like A Rod at all, but there is something sleezy about the leak that shows he's the snitch. MLB is almost Clintonian in their destruction of their enemies.
As for Rose, after all of this, I think he should at least get a vote. If Barry Bonds and Clemens and McGwire get a vote, then he should get the chance too.
phx said...
Steroid users pretty much killed baseball back in the late 80s ... At this point what difference does it make?
I have to agree with Phx here. I'm not much of a baseball fan, haven't been to a game since 1990 or so. However...what I said on another of EBL's threads fits here.
Can somebody explain this differential in severity applied to Rose versus various dopers? Who impacted more game outcomes, Rose even if guilty, or the doper's. Really. I don't get it.
Rose got it in the neck because he refused to say he was sorry. Also Bart Giamatti was involved and banned him and then he died. Fay Vincent who was a total prick on wheels wouldn't reverse it and attitudes hardened. Pete just couldn't say he was sorry because he didn't think he did anything wrong. Gambling is part of big time professional sports. You know who was the biggest gambler and loser in all of professional sports?
Michael Jordan.
That was the real reason he quit basketball for a while. So all of gambling shenanigans wouldn't come to light.
And one more thing. Who the hell was Cody Jarrett?
Character in White Heat. Brilliant performance by James Cagney.
I recall going to a yankees game with a scout troop in the 50s, and a mets game at shea by myself in the 60s, which says to me that the cheap seats were still cheap then.
Trooper York ... in other words MLB bureaucracy executives are dicks just like government senior exec's. The hypocrisy astounds, wrist slaps, essentially, for still active money earners on dope, who impact thousands of games, but tombstones for retired player/managers who might possibly have impacted at most a dozen games for their teams.
Of course the owners don't care if the guy is making money. What I don't understand is why I should care. I mean it's not like every guy in the NFL is not using steroids. What's the big deal? This whole steroids thing is a lot of bullshit.
I've never seen a vial of test hit a home run or throw a 100mph fastball.
In our day, rules mean nothing. There are no rules. Do whatever the fuck you want. That's the rule. Obama rules.
Look, there was ONE rule. ONE. Do Not Bet On Baseball. Bet on baseball and you are banned for life. Period. Ask Shoeless Joe.
Pete Rose knew that. And he said, fuck you, I'll do what I want.
No. Never. He NEVER gets in the Hall of Fame. The day he gets in, they need to shut the doors and burn the place down.
So what if Ty Cobb did this or that. It was not THE RULE at that time. So what if Rose did or did not bet on his own team or did or maybe did not throw any games. The fact is HE BET ON THE GAME. That's it. He's out. Forever. Especially since that piece of crap essentially killed Bart Giamatti because of it.
You don't like that Rose is not in the Hall? Then don't blame anyone except him. He's the piece of crap who is responsible for not being there.
When Shoeless Joe and Kenesaw Mountain Landis can get up out of their graves and walk in with him, then Rose will be allowed in - by buying a ticket.
Bender,
Excellent comment.
Bender bringing the rage! I like it!
I guess Pete Rose will enjoy everlasting fame for not being in the Hall of Fame. I think Shoeless Joe Jackson is far more famous than most of his contemporaries. I can offhand think of three or four movies that alluded to him. I can't think of any that mentioned Tris Speaker.
Cody Jarrett said...
I've never seen a vial of test hit a home run or throw a 100mph fastball.
I give up. What are you trying to say with this comment?
You are not, I hope, suggesting that new home run record setters didn't benefit from PED's?
Bender ... I appreciate your position, respect the idea of obeying rules, and gather that you are a fan of baseball. I am not a fan of baseball and look at it from the simple perspective of who did the most damage to the game by altering outcomes...PED users or gamblers....and suggesting that if one behavior is bad, so is the other, regardless of "rules", for the integrity of the game.
I've lost interest in my main spectator sport (I sucked as a player) of football for similar reasons. Big wheels making arbitrary decisions, outright lying, and demanding holy innocence of some but not others.
Sports above the High school level today is business, big business, and the goal is then to profit and succeed by any means necessary...it's only against the rules if you get caught.
It is very hard for me to be attracted to that commercial aspect in sports. Like NASCAR..once in my youth it was a race between stock cars and drivers...today it is a race between sponsors building exotic NASCAR mandated specialty cars with only exterior skins resembling stock cars. Yawn.
Compromise: Keep Pete from the HoF but lift the lifetime baseball ban. Let him participate in home game ceremonies, etc.
Baseball news --
Ryan Braun is ready to apologize.
We'll see.
Here's the thing. Gambling was just as illegal in Ty Cobbs time as now. He was suspended in a gambling scandal as was Tris Speaker. They were proved to have bet on their own teams and were still allowed in the Hall of Fame. Same deal as Rose.
I hear that Ryan Braun is willing to be spanked to make up for what he did.
As long as Aaron Rodgers does it at home plate before the final game of the season.
I personally think steroids should be permitted in baseball just as they are in football. What's the big deal? If some guy wants to shrink his testicles just to get a few more home runs well then more power to him.
You what baseball should ban?
Dominicans.
They cause all the problems. A-Rod. Manny. All of them. Get rid of them and you get rid of a lot of problems.
What say you Lem?
I would say get rid of the Chinamen too but I don't want to upset Aridog plus one of them is pitching really well for us right now.
Trooper...mentioning Chinamen won't both me one bit. :-]
Never have seen you go all bigot-retard as phony ass Titus does.
Di Di Dit Dit Dot Dit....this just in: a baseball player was found to be 100% free of PED's and playing for a last place team. His name is being kept private to save him the embarrassment of being drug free.
Rumor is that he's being followed by elite MLB investigators to see if he's gambling on baseball. Can't be too careful ya' know.
Everybody knows that player is Derek Jeter and he can't take steroids because herpes counteracts all peds.
I have no bad feelings for what Pete Rose did. The guy is human and he (unfortunately) got caught doing something that MLB has a major hard on about. I think they will continue to screw him on this.
That is my prediction but not my wish.
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