The U.S. Department of Justice, overseen by Attorney General Erich* Holder, has ordered the Sanford, Florida police department to keep possession of all the evidence from George Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial - including the exonerated neighborhood watch volunteer's gun.
Sanford police confirmed on Thursday that the DOJ asked the agency not to return any pieces of evidence to their owners. Zimmerman was expected to get his firearm back by month's end.
Give him his property back!
Property rights used to mean a great deal in this country.
*Pollo's spelling. See his comment under brilliant.
*Pollo's spelling. See his comment under brilliant.
153 comments:
I don't understand this "exception to double jeopardy" business.
Holder just returned from a Sharpton protest convention. He's all inspired and stuff. Holder is under the thumb of the man and he's not going to take it anymore!
Holder represents the "community"-- the portion of low information Americans who get their "news" from hacks like Brian Williams and liar networks like NBC who doctor tapes... "accidentally"
The rest of us can eat donkey.
morning sunshine.
I'm a lawyer with almost 20 years of experience.
You want to stay as far away from the criminal justice system as you possibly can.
There.
I just saved you a lot of time, money and aggravation.
I'll buy Zimmerman a gun.
Everything about this trial is troubling. The reaction and the overreaction from the start. But the result is predictable and it is not good. When do we say enough is enough to the people who are enriching themselves with this incident? I am new to race politics in this country -- so may be I find it more appalling than the people who have been inured to it. The ugliness is coming from the people who cry 'racist' at every turn and they have the support of the biggest political establishment in this country, the lefty media.
Why did they prosecute Scooter Libby when they knew from day one it was Richard Armitage who had told Bob Novak about Valerie Plame?
Because they could not get George W. or Dick Cheney.
The points of the Zimmerman case are to rile up racial/indealogical divides and intimidate the populace. Rile up the divides to attempt to continuing to push Obama's fascist agenda. Intimidate the populace so they'll be afraid to fight back in any form or way.
What is going on in Holder's head is beyond me, but for the Democrats in general it is simple desperation; they must hold the "Black vote" on the plantation through the next election.
That is correct - used to.
It's the Chicago way.
It seems that placating the black victim vote risks antagonizing the new and growing Latino vote...
It seems to me that our government is attempting to ruin Zimmerman's life.
But please, don't call Obama and Holder radical fascists.
They can't really get him since the G-men said he wasn't a racist, so they're harassing him.
Z out to take my people into small claims court.
The ultimate idea to keep alive is that blacks can only do well by taking stuff from whites.
Nothing is permitted that's contrary to that.
@Lem: I see you misspelled "Eric" as "Erick." May I suggest "Erich" as in Honecker instead?
Women, blacks, Hispanics.
stop anti-choice Republicans, fight racism, reform immigration
Heat rhetoric then stew in 2014 election cycle for 6 to 9 months and
voila, Democratic victory.
Black turn out in mid-term elections is historically low. I would expect that the Cook Count Goon squad over at DOJ is under instruction to make this gift last as long as possible.
Phil - So you admit that this is all a political game manipulated by the democrats.
The law? Screw the law. It's the power and the propaganda that matter.
Holder's civil rights division is on a crusade to make sure every lunch counter in the South is desegrated completely and forever.
It is like one of those movies or TV specials where ghosts from the past comes alive and refights the battle of Little Big Horn, and this time Custer wins.
There is not even a pretence that the U.S. Department of Justice is the whole country's Department of Justice and ought to be taking care of the business it is charged with, any more.
Althouse has comments enabled experimentally on a single post.
It's a who knows what will set Althouse off thread.
It's on nude and naked.
I have nothing clever to say on the subject.
People lie a lot.
There's a very nice and out of print and very expensive as a result book "The Artist, His Model, Her Image, His Gaze" by Karen L. Kleinfelder, about Picasso's journey with models.
Being a woman, she knows about the male gaze, and in the end wonders about Picasso's sudden loss of interest in the models very late in life. She figures it's because he's accepted his mortality.
I say it's because that neuron finally stopped firing in his brain.
I used to sincerely believe that the law existed to protect people and to maintain a civil society. I no longer believe this. I now realize that the law has become a weapon which is used to destroy enemies.
Phil - It's all go team go! - no matter the societal destruction.
Althouse has a hanging laundry as hip item, and says there's no bras or underpants probably.
I could have commented that if it's hot and humid, so the dryer would have trouble in the damp basement, I hang out laundry and it's entirely underwear except for the Bermudas.
So how you feeling about "nation of laws" line you been fed so long? Old wise slogans are no match for young stupid energetic slogans. Lies just wait for their moment like a mantis at a hummingbird feeder. The pretty feathers scatter in the wind.
"Althouse has comments enabled experimentally on a single post."
Anybody got Mary's email address?
A couple hundred comments between her, Ritmo and Jay would be great.
Althouse says "- and is not law a feeling?"
Well, for some, facts are just stuffy and old-fashioned, and one really should ignore them and just let it all hang out.
So, let's all go down to the courthouse and burn George Zimmerman at the stake and have a good time!
If Althouse wants an occasional conversation, as she says, she could post over here and link.
Then you get the real thing.
The deal with crazy girlfriends is wish them well and move on.
A marriage is a different deal than crazy girlfriend.
Then you protect each other from finding out about the craziness.
The protecting will not work but the gesture is everlasting.
Hagar said...
Why did they prosecute Scooter Libby when they knew from day one it was Richard Armitage who had told Bob Novak about Valerie Plame? ... Because they could not get George W. or Dick Cheney.
Reminds me why I lost interest in George W in his second term...he was co-opted and didn't have the guts to pardon Libby, just commute his sentence after he'd been held without bail pending appeal.
The aparatchiks were already in place, just awaiting Obama and Holder in order to blossum.
It's a who knows what will set Althouse off thread.
Yeah... I'm kind of disturbed by that "— and isn't law a feeling? —" interjection. It's such an odd statement from a law professor that I worry it goes beyond simple philosophical differences to something more like this.
bagoh20 said...
A couple hundred comments between her [Mary], Ritmo and Jay would be great.
How could you forget "fiona?"
"The deal with crazy girlfriends is wish them well and move on"
If that works, then they aren't really that crazy. The crazy ones need to be fixed up with someone new. Sure that's cruel, but every man for himself. The most successful strategy is to fix her up with a lesbian. That will give you plenty of time to get away. Exploration takes time.
Lucy's gonna yank that football.
It's the Chicago way
More like the Detroit way - where everything is always someone else's fault - together with a bit of Los Angeles and their any excuse to riot will do.
We have seen this behavior since 1967 and before in Detroit. Forever harboring a grievance, forever demanding "NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!" forever insisting that you are owed, forever raging about evil white people. Nothing is ever your own fault. It is never your responsibility to look out for yourself.
For most of the time, it has been Zimmerman the racist who is responsible for this lynching by gun of sweet innocent Trayvon. Now we are hearing assertions that the incompetent prosecutors are to blame for everything.
The one person who is not at fault, who will never be at fault, who can never be at fault, is Trayvon Martin. Or his family. Or the race hustlers like Al Tawana Brawley Sharpton.
All the while, the signal this sends to young black men is to go ahead and continue to dress and act like a thug and if someone disses you, damn right you better go set him straight with a good ass whuppin'. And so we'll have a couple more thousand young black men killed - not by the white klu kluxers, but by other black men. Societal suicide.
Maybe if someone, somewhere along the line had said to Martin -- perhaps after his school found burglarized jewelry in his possession or after they found he was using drugs or when he started acting like a gangsta -- if someone had smacked him upside the head and told him to be a man rather than a thug, he would be alive today. But no. Before and even now in death, they have encouraged him.
sydney said...
I used to sincerely believe that the law existed to protect people and to maintain a civil society. I no longer believe this. I now realize that the law has become a weapon which is used to destroy enemies.
Your first belief is correct, but it does require honorable men. Until 50 years ago, we had that.
Your second applies to societies run by tyrants, unenlightened monarchs, and, of course, Leftists.
That sort of society only ends when honorable men have had enough.
I'm beginning to think that Althouse is a little nuts.
My take is Holder is just "preachin' to the choir" w/ all this. There is NO CIVIL RIGHTS CASE, and he knows that. It's just a dog and pony show for the base.
Detroit is just a sad lesson that a lot of people will never get. The real estate there is virtually free now. It's a city with unused infrastructure, free land, desperate for tax revenue, and with a bunch of people out of work. Just one tiny thing stopping it from being the fastest growing place in the country with business rushing in to fill the void - stupidity.
Lévi-Strauss never did a naked and nude book, I don't think.
"It's just a dog and pony show for the base."
I don't even think the people who the show is for really believe. It's mostly opportunism from top to bottom, and people with too much time on their hands needing something to be emotional about. It's a national show going after the Jerry Springer and Oprah audience.
In the future, everyone will be infamous for 15 minutes.
This whole thing has changed me irrevocably and now all the men that I know so eager to spout off on political subjects they're unwilling to discuss beyond surface skimming will just have to deal with it. I've become similar to how Dr. Fred was except worse. I have no problem now telling a whole van of men all my senior that collectively they're too stupid to talk to about political things. They all look at me like I'm completely out of my mind.
And so?
You see, they have information, a lot of it, and reach the wrong conclusions. Collectively. How is that? They cannot sort good information from bad, they cannot disregard the huge pile of bad information and organize the good facts into a meaningful set of conclusions. They do not know trash from facts. They simply cannot sort. Most things smell like ass, some things are empty holes. In order to sort and reach proper conclusions, you must be able to sort their asses from a holes in the ground. That's where ALL of them fail. That's where we'd have to start.
Now is that arrogant or what? The thing is, I can hold my ground on that. All the way through. Drill it right down to the earth and bury it, if they could stick with it which they never can do. They always, ALWAYS, ALWAYS shut down dialogue when it become uncomfortable. The whole point is to be comfortable. So it comes out; you're all wrong all at once, I can show your asses from a holes in the ground but you're not having it, that's why you'll all stay stupid, and on top of all of you are worse than Mussolini. Time's up! And like a dog flips from being scolded to glee, I flip to singing off key, like that guy in Gigi, and for full bathos, get the words all wrong
Why do birds follow me around?
flapping aallll around toooown?
Just like me
They want to be
Blame on you.
* change tempo* All the birdies came from heaven and decided to create a dream come truuuuuuuuue.
So they sprinkled starlight in your face and in your hair and at your eyes of bluuuuuuue ewew ewew ewes
And, being playful, and eager to have fun, and adaptable, and altogether tards, they join right in, flatly , horribly, singing their own versions mangling a perfectly good song like Maurice Chevalier.
Maybe now, with Detroit filing for bankruptcy, they will finally deal with reality. The city is dead. The renaissance that they have pursued for 30-plus years is never going to happen. They need to content themselves with being a smaller city and stop deluding themselves (together with Ann Arbor) that they are somehow important, much less the center of the universe.
I took up pollos' spelling suggestion. Is perfect.
"I'm beginning to think that Althouse is a little nuts."
I'm not even sure about my own sanity on this subject. Just a few weeks ago, I was loving her, and now I'm wondering who the hell she was. It's like one of those thrillers where a person finds out their spouse has a secret life, and isn't who they thought. I'm still not sure what's true. I definitely don't buy that they are the villains Crack been saying, but it seems my take was a little naive.
George should find Holder and punch him right in the nose.
Mitchell the Bat said...
I'm a lawyer with almost 20 years of experience.
You want to stay as far away from the criminal justice system as you possibly can.
There.
I just saved you a lot of time, money and aggravation.
Yeah, I've pretty much said that very thing for a long time. I'll take my chances against a criminal any day, but once the criminal justice system gets its hooks into you and your life. You are finished. It will never leave you alone ever again.
Well, there were signs.
Vicki Hearne comments somewhere on the Jews after Hitler won the election, "Okay, so how crazy is he?"
Things didn't get obviously serious until Krystalnacht.
bagoh, It's also a distraction away from the DOJ scandals.
bagoh20 said...
Just one tiny thing stopping it from being the fastest growing place in the country with business rushing in to fill the void - stupidity.
Wrong. It isn't stupidity, it's leftist Democrats that are still running the place, will still run the place, and will be the last to leave if that ever happens. Democrats destroyed that city along with their union thuggery protection racket. This is what leftism looks like and it's more dangerous than any natural disaster could provide. Leftism has and is costing us trillions. This is on them. They are the problem. We all know it and yet we tiptoe around it like letting the Zimmerman protesters continue their idiotic lies about what really happened.
Who is standing up to Sharpton? Who is standing up to Jackson or Holder? No one.
I'd say the Holder move is essentially harmless in this crazy, screwed up world. Just a little innocent identity politics to help Hillary on her way.
But chick is correct, the Latinos are where the big vote is. But they already know that.
My grandmother once described two guys she used to know as "asshole buddies."
She meant that either one of them was a standup guy, by himself, but when the two of them got together something happened and they somehow brought out the worst in each other and became insufferable.
I've encountered a few married couples who might fairly be described in an analogous way.
I'm not saying that that's what's going on with Althouse/Meade (I don't really know either of them, in all candor) but the thought has crossed my mind.
It's just sort of natural to change aspects of your personality to please or accommodate someone who's important to you.
Sometimes I think both Althouse and Meade were always prone to play head games, and then they got together, and a big part of their relationship is reinforcing that dynamic and taking it to strange new places.
I guess that makes for a strong bond but it's also like saying "fuck you" to everyone else in the world.
Before Sharpton, Jackson, and Holder, there was Coleman Young. Detroit was already a racially-polarized city when he came and poured gasoline on the fires, with some napalm and a couple of nuclear bombs for good measure.
The Artist, His Model, Her Image, His Gaze: Picasso's Pursuit of the Model
Abe Books $19.00
You can't escape the government now, but it seems like that's been the case ever since the late 1800's.
I was always amazed how outlaws would never seem to get away long, even out west. Even today the country is so vast and sparsely inhabited that it seems you could hide forever if all they had was men on horseback.
Still they would track a guy down and eventually get him. There are cases out here in Los Angeles of outlaws or rogue Indians that did some nastiness and escaped into the mountain here. I hike these mountains, and it seems it would be impossible to find someone trying to hide. With a helicopter, sure, but otherwise, it's a needle in a haystack. There are a number of geographical locals out here named after an outlaw that hid there.
Detroit is the democrat party.
But you won't hear about it on the nightly news.
Detroit does kind of look like the pictures posted of East Germany from before the unfication.
Detroit's current mayor, Dave Bing, former Piston, is a decent guy.
But it is too late.
Detroit is not only dead, but it has been a stinking rotting corpse for decades.
deborah said...
I'd say the Holder move is essentially harmless in this crazy, screwed up world. Just a little innocent identity politics to help Hillary on her way.
Have to disagree on both counts.
Nothing the Choom Gang does is harmless (wait and see) and they don't help anybody but themselves.
But chick is correct, the Latinos are where the big vote is. But they already know that.
Actually, no.
Somebody did a study of the "election" using the government figures for vote tallies and found the Romster couldn't have won if he'd gotten 70% of the Hispanic vote.
But he would have won if he'd gotten 10 - 15% more of the white vote.
So something doesn't add up somewhere.
IYKWIM
PS On the Naked post, she's leaving comments as is.
FWIW
That's a good find, Chip. Just the introduction alone on pages 1-3 is worth the price.
I have one or I'd snap one up.
rhhardin said...
Althouse has comments enabled experimentally on a single post.
Okay, so I went over and read the nekkid thread. Whot? I now actually understand why Ann said Chief Justice Roberts ruling vis a vis penalty versus taxation made sense. It does to me, too, but I call it non-sense.
As a cure beginning for the navel gazers I suggest reading Wendell Johnson's "People in Quandaries" and even better, S. I Hayakawa's "Language in Thought and Action" as introductory to the General Semantics movement promoted and mentored by Alfred Korzybski, who purportedly said "the map is not the territory".
In engineering if you bollix up the application of words to suit meanings in your fancy and imagination you can get people killed.
Pogo said...
Lucy's gonna yank that football.
Yep. Daily there have been temporary posts showing a comment section, which soon vanished. Sort of like a old burlesque act, teasing flashes of flesh, so to speak....but you never really see what's behind the fan.
Then bingo!...one is left out there and in the comments the author says it is a test. Of what. It is all a test and has been for a long time.
Now I want my today's 10 minutes back.
"Wrong. It isn't stupidity, it's leftist Democrats that are still running the place..."
But all democratically elected by stupidity. What else can you call choosing to be led by people who are destroying you, and doing it over and over? Those people are not benefiting, yet they keep falling for it. The alternative is available, if they want it.
All the problems in this country are caused by too many stupid people. We actually do decide who runs the place, and we are stupid about it. We elected a freaking "lightworker" twice, with the help of "intellectuals" enamored by pants creases. Just accept it. We're complete assholes.
Mitchell
"Sometimes I think both Althouse and Meade were always prone to play head games, and then they got together, and a big part of their relationship is reinforcing that dynamic and taking it to strange new places."
Meade had an asshole style in his video-taping of the Wisconsin protests. Like when he was telling that kid that he was being disrespectful of the war memorial(?) His general tone during that period gave me the willies. (And I maintain that I think Meade is a good guy.)
bagoh20 said...
You can't escape the government now, but it seems like that's been the case ever since the late 1800's.
I was always amazed how outlaws would never seem to get away long, even out west. Even today the country is so vast and sparsely inhabited that it seems you could hide forever if all they had was men on horseback.
Still they would track a guy down and eventually get him.
Keep in mind, those were the ones you heard about.
Jesse James always got away, f'rinstance.
But consider this, the working life of a pirate at the dawn of the 17th century was only a year or two, "Black Bart" Roberts seems to hold the record at three. you'd think, with all the world in which to hide, a lot of these guys would have just vanished.
The truth seems to be most were killed in shootouts or hanged with a few taking advantage of the constant wars in those days and turning privateer to save their necks.
Pogo
"It is all a test and has been for a long time."
Yeah, but it's been more Stockholm Syndrome than anything else. We were over a barrel as far as having nowhere else to go.
Lem's is so free and light and safe!
Meade at the war memorial thing made me like him a lot, because that's the kind of thing I'd do. Althouse in line with her nature does nothing. She is the quintessential modern intellectual. Pretty useless in actual practice.
"Detroit does kind of look like the pictures posted of East Germany from before the unfication."
Obama, tear down this wall!
What kind of animal would stay starving in the cage after the door is opened? Only a human who votes left.
I read with interest William Saletan's take on the trial, and I think he really nailed the story told by the actual evidence.
What interested me almost as much, however, was his twitter feed below the article. I'm not very twitter-saavy, so it was hard for me to get a true feel of the multiple conversations he was having (this would've been on Tuesday, I think), but he commented at one point that he believed Zimmerman should never get his gun back.
He doesn't argue that Zimmerman acted ultimately in anything other than self-defense in the final seconds of the beat-down (or, at least, that the evidence supported ample reasonable doubt on the charges).
Still, it was his belief that the entire incident was a folly of misunderstandings and overreactions, and that someone evincing that level of misjudgement should never again be allowed to carry a gun.
Is this really a question simply of property rights? Is there a fair question of judgement here, too, or does Saletan go too far?
My upbringing didn't get flags and memorials and reverence as a good thing. Just one you kept quiet about and went along with.
Sort of like being in an Althouse test comment thread.
Reverence winds up in the hands in people in charge of reverence, which ought not to be encouraged.
Nice long ago John and Ken segment on reverence and the Pledge, from back when they were good in the 90s, which starts very slow and boring but gets lively as irate listeners call in and John defends irreverence.
real audio 31 minutes.
Is this really a question simply of property rights? Is there a fair question of judgment here, too, or does Saletan go too far?
Apparently Saletan adheres to the concept that acquittal does not mean one is found innocent. That however is not was a trials does...find innocence.
Zimmerman was presumed innocent [if that concept even still exist here], adjudged, and found not guilty. Therefore he remains innocent under the law and is entitled to his property, all of it, back.
I'm going to experiment ...
Indeed, who wouldn't jump at the chance to be part of an Althouse experiment!
4. I'd love to have this conversation.
ie I'd love to have any conversation. Hey, she has to live with and chat w/only Meade since she zipped her comment section.
She misses you guys, she really misses you guys!
This means so much more to me this time, I don't know why. I think the first time I hardly felt it because it was all too new. But I want to say "Thank you" to you. I haven't had an orthodox career. And I've wanted more than anything to have your respect. The first time I didn't feel it. But this time I feel it. And I can't deny the fact that you like me . . . right now . . . you like me. Thank you. ~ Sally Field
>
C'mon, for the sake of humanity, throw Althouse a bone!
Mark Steyn on Rush was asked to go on the air with Detroit WJR's Frank Beckmann to apologize, he said on Rush today, and he went on and dug the hole deeper.
I'd love to have a podcast of that.
"Still, it was his belief that the entire incident was a folly of misunderstandings and overreactions, and that someone evincing that level of misjudgement should never again be allowed to carry a gun."
I can't get over how people keep doing that. Zimmerman just followed someone suspicious at a distance with the cops on the way, then got out of his truck and walked around his own neighborhood and went back toward his car? How is that stupid, or irresponsible?
The single stupid, irresponsible and illegal act was Martin attacking a man walking to his truck. That's all there is to this.
Zimmerman could have been an undercover cop, or guy looking for his lost dog, and Martin would still be dead, simply and only because he attacked a man who he did not know, and that man defended himself.
Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong or irresponsible at any time that night. He had many opportunities to make big mistakes like brandishing the gun, but he didn't. He's exactly kind of man you want owning a gun.
I have no doubt that Martin would have possessed a gun illegally eventually. If you see his phone records and personal history, you see that this guy was gonna end up in this kind of trouble eventually. He insisted on this happening sooner rather than later, but it was gonna happen, and Zimmerman had nothing to do with it. He was just cast in the part that night.
bagoh20 said...
Anybody got Mary's email address?
I probably shouldn't admit this, but I do have her email address.
AllenS, Booty calls?
err booty emails?
I think she wants me. Maybe she just wants to kill me, who knows. She can be really nice one minute, and completely wacko the next. Course, you knew that.
Hundreds of people have threatened, even pledged to kill Zimmerman. And Eric Holder took away his gun. Did he also send him a glow in the dark shirt with a bullseye on it?
I've stopped reading Althouse. Otherwise I'd go over and post a comment about how cool Lem's place is.
@Michael Haz
"Bummer of a birthmark, George."
Yeah, Aridog, but mightn't there actually be more to the story than that?
My dad was a defense attorney, a pretty good one, too, and conversations about the meaning of "innocent" vs. "not guilty" were common around our house, as well as the fact that it was the prosecution's job to prove guilt and not the defendant's job to prove innocence. He ascribed to the "better a guilty man go free" school. And I assume many did.
In my opinion, based on the evidence, Zimmerman did nothing unlawful, and the jury certainly came up with the correct verdict.
If young Trayvon had a modicum of self-control where being dissed is concerned (that's my take, obviously), he'd still be alive today. Once he started with the head smashing and nose breaking, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself.
But it's also true that Zimmerman was likely wrong about Martin's purpose in strolling through the neighborhood, at least on this occasion, which led to his heightened concern as to his whereabouts until the police could get there. He really *was* following the guy (or at least trying to keep track of him). That really *is* creepy, when you're the one being followed.
I dunno. I realize I have a weak case here. Just like the prosecution. But I do think misjudgements on both sides led to this tragedy.
On the other hand, it's not like Zimmerman came out shooting. He let the guy best him for at least 40 seconds before getting to his gun.
I wonder what Zimmerman himself wishes he'd done differently?
"I probably shouldn't admit this, but I do have her email address."
WTF!?
bagoh20 said...
Zimmerman just followed someone suspicious at a distance with the cops on the way, then got out of his truck and walked around his own neighborhood and went back toward his car? How is that stupid, or irresponsible?
Consider the mindset they must have to instinctively reach and bitterly cling to this conclusion. Watching someone suspicious is a "provocation" to quote Saletan. According to many defending your neighbor's property by watching it is such an error in judgment it should negate the right to self-defense. Many more examples abound.
The assertions indicate a complete dependency on government for literally everything. This is of course consistent with the left's silly view that libertarians are against community because they believe in small government. You can only make this assertion if you think the government itself is the community. It's ridiculous where this leads, and I wonder how many even understand themselves well enough to recognize their own choices.
Bags, I know you probably know what I meant, but I meant the scene taped inside the capitol where he was telling the kid he shouldn't have stuff in in front of it. Jeeze, it was so self-righteous.
You know, I'm guilty of talking about this case as if it were nothing more than an interesting hypothetical.
The point about Zimmerman's life being in genuine danger, probably for the rest of his life, is an important one.
Who's supposed to protect him, if he's not allowed to defend himself? Especially since the government -- the government! -- has made it clear they don't want him defended ...
deb,
She doesn't live that far from me. Her ex-fiance lives just down the road, and his brother is a good friend of mine. I've seen Mary drive by my place a couple of times. Hard to say if she knows it's my place.
Saturday, I'm picking up my new .380 pistol. It's real cute, and will fit in my pants pocket without a lot of bulges.
"I wonder what Zimmerman himself wishes he'd done differently?"
I'm sure he wishes he'd stayed in the truck, but only because he now knows that Martin is worse than he suspected. He thought he might just be a burglar, but he turned out to be an aggressive and dangerous young man. You can't blame him for not expecting that from a young boy with Skittles and ice tea.
But it's also true that Zimmerman was likely wrong about Martin's purpose in strolling through the neighborhood, at least on this occasion, which led to his heightened concern as to his whereabouts until the police could get there.
Was Zimmerman wrong?
He saw someone he was not sure about. Someone who, given prior burglaries, was somewhat suspicious. And so what did Zimmerman do with his suspicion? He sought to obtain more information. He didn't make any conclusions, he didn't jump to any judgment that Martin was definitely a bad guy. Instead, he wasn't sure. Period.
And when you are not sure about something, what is the reasonable thing to do? Get more information. That's what Zimmerman was doing.
Now, if Zimmerman had made a definitive judgment and stopped Martin, trying to make a citizen's arrest, then he would have been wrong because he lacked probable cause to conclude criminality at that point. But he did have reasonable suspicion, which was enough to investigate further.
"I wonder what Zimmerman himself wishes he'd done differently?"
1) Volunteer for something other than a neighborhood watch.
2) Listen to the 911 operator re: not following Martin and waiting for the police to arrive.
3) Not get out of his car.
ok, ok, it was divine intervention er God's will! ~ My bad.
Guess it's also "god's will" that Z will be harrassed and profiled for the rest of his life ...
Karma!
"Bags, I know you probably know what I meant, but I meant the scene taped inside the capitol where he was telling the kid he shouldn't have stuff in in front of it. Jeeze, it was so self-righteous."
Yea, I agree about that one. I was thinking of the one where he washed off the statue outside. I'd do that. The one you are talking about was him just bugging them, which is alright, since that was the purpose of the protesters too. He was just throwing it back at them.
Meade was in a tough spot there, but I think it's all fine now. Althouse will get the kind of place she wants - a quiet respectful parlor with raised pinkies and all, and Meade will get peace with her un-abused. It's all good.
George Zimmerman could run for Senator of MA. After all, Ted Kennedy killed a young woman and her unborn child and it didn't seem to bother the voters.
Shiloh -
On your 1 2 3 list - nothing
is illegal.
Is it illegal to get out of your truck?
Is it illegal to be a part of a neighborhood watch?
Is it illegal to call 9/11 and then walk back to your truck?
Are you stupid or willfully ignorant of the facts?
Treyvon doubled back and pounced on Zimmerman - breaking his nose as he smashed his head into the pavement. Is that OK?
Perhaps Treyvon's hoodie and the dark, rainy night obscured his halo. In life one rarely encounters anyone so beatific as this young man. To think that in this day and age there are people in the world so blatantly racist to regard this gentle young man as suspicious staggers the mind. I only thank God that there was someone like Jeantel to tell us of his last moments and to keep alive his memory.
"She doesn't live that far from me. Her ex-fiance lives just down the road, and his brother is a good friend of mine. I've seen Mary drive by my place a couple of times. Hard to say if she knows it's my place.
Saturday, I'm picking up my new .380 pistol. It's real cute, and will fit in my pants pocket without a lot of bulges."
I hope you don't end up as a subject of one of Mrs. Spinelli's books. Stay safe.
IIRC Althouse said she had a restraining order against Mary to post on her blog. If so, I wonder why she doesn't enforce it.
By the way, is that a gun in your pocket, or...oh, never mind :)
Shiloh is OK with HIS HOLY AND PRECIOUS GOVERNMENT harassing Zimmerman, a man acquitted in a court of law by a jury of his peers.
Fascist.
Shiloh, Do you think Martin was a dangerous person, or did he act reasonable?
"If Althouse wants an occasional conversation, as she says, she could post over here and link."
Lem, quickly now, hide the bunny!
Hey, Allen, I'm sure you know this, but please keep an empty chamber in your gun :)
Rabel lol.
AprilApple
Your deflection about legality aside, as they say in court. asked and answered ie the question was asked about woulda/coulda/shoulda and I answered it.
But on the bright side, your inane deflection wasn't as bad as AllenS re: Kennedy.
btw, obviously Z couldn't handle himself in a fight, so it's good that he carried a gun, but neighborhood watch definitely wasn't his true calling ...
solo estoy diciendo
Ha, I see AllenS waking to the sound of click - click - click. As he opens his eyes and says "how stupid do think I am, Mary? Make me a sammich."
Later AllenS isn't feeling so good, something not right in the tummy. Call an ambulance! Call them before the sex, you know someone is gonna need em.
Treyvon doubled back and pounced on Zimmerman - breaking his nose as he smashed his head into the pavement. Is that OK?
Shiloh - hello?
Shiloh gets his news from Brian Williams.
"Shiloh, Do you think Martin was a dangerous person, or did he act reasonable?"
That's a non-sequitur ie a "supposed" dangerous person can act either reasonable or unreasonable or not act at all.
If I was young African/American and thought I was being profiled/stalked by who knows who er a dangerous person, not sure how I would act.
But Bagoh's meaningless hypothetical is duly noted.
Aleert! Alert!
AllenS has Cooties. :-))
bagoh20 @ 12:31
Bender @ 12:33
I really appreciate the clarity you guys bring to this kind of discussion.
Shiloh is unable to answer directly.
Yes or No.
Treyvon doubled back and pounced on Zimmerman - breaking his nose as he smashed his head into the pavement. Is that OK?
Yes or No? - Shiloh.
Shiloh, people like you are always the same. They will never consider even for second the other side's point. You deflect and duck the issue, never willing to face it and argue your side.
Martin was clearly now a dangerous man. Attacking someone who is walking away, and who never threatened you makes you very dangerous. It's an extremely dangerous thing to attack a stranger even when threatened, but to do it without an immediate threat is illegal and always potentially deadly.
Like I asked, what if Zimmerman was an undercover cop or just a guy looking for his dog? Martin would still be dead, because he made all the mistakes in both judgement and action, and anybody walking nearby could have been the victim of his aggression, whether driven by paranoia or not.
It could have been you just looking for a friend's house, but with a man around who jumps to conclusions and violence so easily - a dangerous man - you would have no choice, no way out, and another dangerous, out-of-contol man (Holder) would be after you. You should have just stayed home. How dare you.
Sue them. There is no legal reason to withhold the return of his property at this juncture.
Along w/the personally abusive con posters at Althouse, it was also the idiotic posters like AprilApple who made her decision to close the comment section easy.
And again, bagoh20's projection, as well as his personal prejudices/biases are duly noted. Hopefully he's not trying to childishly bait me again as it didn't go well for him last time.
Interesting how a con echo chamber flock can seamlessly be relocated in no time. Go figure!
Shiloh, as everyone here knows. Neither you or anyone else has ever gotten the best of me, because that's simply not the way I play. I don't lose - I learn. We have seen you do this shoot and run bullshit before, and never learn anything.
Apparently, you just came to play troll again and don't have the courage to defend your position and teach me something. I wonder why.
@shiloh,
AprilApple made some fairly simple points which you seem to be unable to answer, and bagohs2 comments are the height of decorum. Yet you descend into ad hominems.
Poor performance, Shiloh. You can do better. I don't know, maybe you can open up a can of nuance on our sorry asses!
April,
Martin said, "You've got trouble now!" and slugged Zimmerman on the nose and broke it. GZ slipped and fell backwards onto the grass, but with his head on the sidewalk. TM dived down after him, straddled him, and proceeded to punch him and bang the back of GZ's head on the sidewalk.
At the autopsy TM had lacerations on his right hand knuckles, presumably from the pummeling.
From TV reports last year, but did not see in the court reporting, TM confronted GZ in his pickup as GZ finished talking to the 911 operator. Nothing much came out of that, other than some language by TM, and TM left and GZ was about to go to the store on his original errand, when he caught a glimpse of TM cutting up between the houses, and he decided he had better check to see what, if anything, TM was up to, and decided to follow. Then the second confrontation and the fight and the shooting.
Now, I have seen some article saying that marijuana combined with some of the other drugs TM was using, can make you more belligerent than normal. So, is it so unreasonable that Trayvon Martin, on top of his other frustrations and tribulations that day and evening, should decide to take swing at this supposed honky pestering him?
You don't actually open a can of nuance. You make a poster of one and stand back scratching your beard in admiration - say stuff like "That's ironic.")
Also brings to mind the old western story about the man who was killed in a gunfight.
The coroner brought a verdict of suicide; he had opened fire with a handgun at 150 yards at a man armed with a rifle.
Shiloh - Just answer the question.
Yes or no.
"btw, obviously Z couldn't handle himself in a fight, so it's good that he carried a gun, but neighborhood watch definitely wasn't his true calling .."
-- Side note: Zimmerman's actions actually DID help apprehend another burglar. Sometimes, you know, things don't go according to plan.
Yes or No.
Treyvon doubled back and pounced on Zimmerman - breaking his nose as he smashed his head into the pavement. Is that OK?
Yes or No? - Shiloh.
bagoh20, for someone who lived at Althouse 24/7, the closing of her con echo chamber must have crushed you deeply. But again, thankfully Lem helped picked up slack. And "we" can all be grateful ...
btw, your childish baiting hasn't improved.
>
Indeed, cons are always in need a secure sanctuary where they can agree w/each other ad nauseam.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
And since this is probably my last post, what's up w/Meade as he must miss you guys more than Althouse. Shocking!
Yea, Althouse made a post re: doing something nice for someone everyday of the year, so I stopped posting there as 2012 turned to 2013. Will do the same favor for Lem as my brief stay license has now expired.
Politically blogging being so much childish nonsense, notwithstanding.
And there's your answer. Jeantel could not have stated it any more clearly.
Trying to rehabilitate shiloh of all people? You guys are ambitious.
Honestly, one thing I never get about the left-right: The left never stops fighting. The right, we've pretty much learned to accept defeats. We know that when things are over, it is time to move on.
I can -still- egg most far left groups into "selected not elected" chants if I tried.
Let, it, go. The Zimmerman verdict? Let, it, go.
shiloh-
You really should have twirled more before your exit.
M. Sablan's inane generalizations are duly noted.
Boehner's teabagger congress voting against health care 37 times, notwithstanding.
Indeed, you lost, let it go ...
>
Please Althouse cons, I beseech you, don't say anything else totally stupid, like Matthew just did, so I can quietly leave.
"Boehner's teabagger congress voting against health care 37 times, notwithstanding."
-- You know, a bunch of D's have thrown in their lot with Boehner. He's actually got the majority there, and considering it is still a live issue, it is a lot different than railing against a verdict that should have pretty much closed this case for America.
Open law in constant debate =/= Finished trial
Oh, my... Shiloh's leaving again.
I don't agree with Shiloh, but his opinion is the official, establishment position. Eventually it will be this opinion that makes its way into the history books. It drives me crazy, but that's the way it is.....It's foolish to sucker punch a man with a loaded gun, and it's even more foolish to expect the press to report fairly on such an incident.
Aridog said...
Oh, my... Shiloh's leaving again.
July 19, 2013 at 2:25 PM
*********
LOL!
Honestly, after today, the Zimmerman thing has reached the Beyond Parody Point. The government has set up a "Zimmerman Is a Racist" hotline and Obama seriously wonders if he could have been Trayvon Martin [even though he has never, once, given us any reason to believe he would sucker punch people. As much as I disagree with him politically, he seems like a relatively mellow, calm sort of guy.]
What's next? Some guy with the defense's theoretical stop motion animated video saying "Back, and to the left?"
Also: Obama knows not to bring fists to a gunfight.
... What, too soon?
the Zimmerman thing has reached the Beyond Parody Point
Rest assured, after condemning Zimmerman as racist for getting out of his vehicle and walking in the same direction as Martin, next time they will condemn as racist someone who stays in his vehicle in order to avoid some black guy at night wearing a hoodie, or who walks in the opposite direction or crosses to the other side of the street.
The point is -- you are a racist. Period. You are a racist if you do one thing, you are a racist if you do the opposite. Facts and logic have nothing to do with it. That's why everyone condemning Zimmerman refuse to deal with facts or logic.
"Yea, Althouse made a post re: doing something nice for someone everyday of the year, so I stopped posting there..."
Wow, that was nice. She inspired you.
For the record, Matthew didn't disagree his inane generalization was totally stupid!
Also for the record, I never "announced" I was leaving Althouse as I just quietly left. Indeed, those who announce they are leaving, never do.
I am somewhat hesitant to leave 'cause like Althouse was a 90/10 con blog, if the few libs did leave, who would cons attack. ok, ok, cons can always personally attack Althouse which is why she closed her blog lol.
And re: cons letting it go, please tell William et al to stop whining about the establishment er MSM.
Indeed, it was relatively easy to leave Althouse 'cause the con, ad nauseam whining had reached critical mass after Obama was easily re-elected.
Herpes.
Spirochetes
I just read Obama's enlightening remarks about the Zimmerman case. He talks about white women who clutch their purse when a black man gets on the elevator. Perhaps that white woman had, in the past, had her purse snatched by a black man. If blacks wish to distrust white people for purse hugging, why can't white people distrust blacks for purse snatching......I grew up and lived most of my life in racially mixed neighborhoods. I have a fairly robust physique, but three times in my life I have been attacked by groups of black kids. I did nothing to precipitate these confrontations. One of them was extremely scary. I had to run into the traffic of a busy street to escape. One time my brother was not so lucky. He got clobbered pretty good, and his money was taken. And, of course, only a racist would speculate that his robbers beat him up for reasons other than robbery. They were idealistic young robbers who lived on a plane far above prejudice....I guarantee that if a guy dressed as Santa Claus came after you with an axe, then for the rest of your life you would flinch every time you saw Santa Claus.....Obama explains how he's been profiled. OK, I can see how that would bother a person. Can he understand the feelings of that young woman who had to hide in a closet? Is she not entitled to her feelings of wariness around young black men?
Steyn suggests naming the new royal baby Trayvon.
C'mon, for the sake of humanity, throw Althouse a bone!
No. And here is why Time is too precious to waste on the stupid.
I think it was Jesse Jackson Sr. who said he was ashamed to admit it, but he is relieved when he sees that the man walking behind him on a dark street is a "white" man.
Perhaps Jackson should talk to Obama about that.
edutcher @11:24am
"Have to disagree on both counts.
Nothing the Choom Gang does is harmless (wait and see) and they don't help anybody but themselves."
Oh, yes, the biggest, most glorious screw-over will be when Hilldog is thrown under the bus, and then backed over a few times. But then again, she knows where the bodies are hidden.
I love this:
Asked if the president had thoroughly contemplated his remarks, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said, “I don’t think there’s any question, and you can judge by what he just said and how he said it, he knows what he thinks and he knows what he feels, and he had not just in the past week but for a good portion of his life given a lot of thought to these issues.”
Isn't that just insulting: "Hey, has your boss REALLY thought this through?"
This guy could have been Barack Obama too.
I mean if you are just judging somebody by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.
Barack Obama could never have been Trayvon. It is just more bullshit from a race baiter.
Allen S--a 38 might be OK--but as my old comrade Drill Sgt says: never get in a gun fight with a caliber that isn't at least .40. Get yourself an m 1911 45 ACP
Shiloh on any topic is like watching Reed Richards go stretcho at avoiding bullets. It's pointless to even both confronting him on any topic or subject because being a humorless, unthinking dick has cemented itself into his DNA already. You can't fix that kind of obtuse floundering.
Roger J. said...
Allen S--a 38 might be OK--but as my old comrade Drill Sgt says: never get in a gun fight with a caliber that isn't at least .40. Get yourself an m 1911 45 ACP
Best CCW on the market in my opinion is the Springfield Armory XDS .45ACP.
I won't admit to anything WRT firearms, I hope, but at the ***store the other day I was admiring a nice 1911.
Store owner says the are a bit too heavy for full time carry.
My uncle was glad he had his with him at Tarawa and Guadalcanal, so I am tempted to consider thinkin' about commencin' to buying one, if only to honor his service.
But for now, that will have to wait.
Post a Comment