Wednesday, November 16, 2016

Freudian Slippage

Overheard at Lem's:

Trooper York said...
DBQ if you want to put it in Western Terms then Reince is Ransome Stoddard. Bannon is Tom Doniphon. Only this time he is going to get the girl.
Trooper York said...
To put it in psychological terms:

Reince is Trump's ego.

Bannon is Trump's id.


I beg your pardon? This equates Reince/Ransome as the Ego and Bannon/Doniphon as the Id.
Two wrongs in my book.

My understanding of Freud's original construct is:

More here

In that sketch, the "Environment" is the so-called Super-Ego -- the collective do-gooding force...the Church & the Law, etc. The Super-Ego informs the Ego from above; the Id impels the Ego from below.

Another view is the familiar meme:

Link to original

In that sketch, the devil (Id) and the angel (Super-Ego) inform the Ego.

In the film The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the Id, the Ego, and the Super Ego of the Old West are portrayed by Liberty Valance, Tom Doniphon, and Ransome Stoddard respectively. Valance is irrational, impulsive, and entirely self-interested; Stoddard personifies The Law and Rules and is the Super-Ego. Tom Doniphon mediates the two forces and is the Ego.

The Ego is often derided as a bad thing: "Oh he's so egotistical." How did modern culture so lose sight of Freud's original intent? The Ego is not the selfish Id, nor is it the selfless Super-Ego.

To circle back and to correct Troop's analogy: Bannon is the bad-boy Id and Reince is the good-boy Super-Ego.

Donald Trump is caught between them; he is The Ego -- but you knew that already.


AprilApple said...

The fact that the left are going ape shit over Bannon - makes me like the choice.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I don't know much about Freud or psychology for that matter. In high school I read the book "I'm Okay, You're Okay" (it was recommended by the school for summer reading)and I recall there was something called "transactional analysis" which seemed to me a lot like the Id, Ego, Super-Ego thing, except he called it Child, Adult and Parent. The idea was to get you to consider, for example, what happens when you communicate to someone else using your parent brain, rather than your adult brain.

I'm probably making a hash of it. It's been a while.

Anyway, I try to think of the things people say and do in terms of evolution and ethology.

I guess that would be the adult part of me.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

For example, why do some people complain so much? Why are they so bitter when they complain? Why so loud?

Well, when a baby cries, it gets milk, ideally.

The behavior is rewarded, reinforced, and we remember that and continue that into adulthood.

Hmmmmm . . . there's probably some B.F. Skinner thrown in there.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

That evolutionary psychology lecturer make it a point to continually refer to inherited "capacities" as opposed to behaviors.

There's a class of song birds that has a complex set of vocalizations. If they raise a baby away from its own species, it still sings, but it does not sing the songs typical for its species.

Food for thought.

deborah said...

an example forom the book...

husband: have you seen my socks?

wife's possible replies...

child: not my problem.

parent: if you'd put things where they belong, you could find them.

adult: i'll help you look.

(something like that)

windbag said...

But, who is the egg man and who is the walrus?

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

So how does this play out with Hillary, Bill and the Mook?

chickelit said...

@Evi: Any scenario involving Hillary would have Soros as the irrational Id.

MamaM said...

The clearest "adult" answer to "Have you seen my socks? is "Yes I have." or "No I haven't."

Followed up with a description of the location or the offer to help, such as "They're in the drawer" or "Would you like help finding them?

The response of "I'll help you look" is an Adult to Child response which includes a presumption of need but perhaps that's the joke in deborah's something-like-that-example-from-the-book.

Chip Ahoy said...

I don't know any of the cowboy movie names. I had to look them up.

Thomas Harris wrote his book based on the work of Eric Berne. So, it's Berne's idea and Harris elaborates.

Harris' elaboration has to do with crossed transactions. This is useful to business and management of employees.

Sis said to Mum, she actually did say this, "I didn't ask to be born, you know!"

Such a sassy little bitch. She vocalized the precise thing I had thought many times but didn't dare actually say.

Mum snapped back, right from the front of her brain, no thinking necessary, no time to process, "I didn't ask you to be born either."

Overhearing this I thought, "Brilliant!" ... "This woman has an answer for everything! It's why she's so dangerous, she'll always reliably come up with something I cannot think of." Yet my sister plunges right in and takes the hit. She has ball the size of Montana.

That there's a crossed transaction. Beverly speaks as spoiled child, but does not receive a parental return. Instead she gets an extreme childishly adult return. Arguing back as a child would from the position of an adult. A mixed crossed transaction.

Compare with , "There, there, Honey you'll be okay."

*Popeye's voice* I ain't no psychological-ist, but I knows what's on my mind.

Sixty Grit said...

I used to work with a woman whose father was a butter and egg man. You don't hear about them much these days.

edutcher said...

Chip and Troop make me think of that old Statler Brothers line:

Everbody's tryin' to make a comment
About our doubts and fears
True Grit's the only movie
I've really understood in years

PS If you're looking for a superego, I think you have to go for Martha Hyer in "The Sons Of Katie Elder".

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

The internet seems to have forgotten May Alix. I had to look that up. There was a guy, back when I was a kid, who drove a truck and delivered eggs door to door. He would knock on the door and announce, "It's-a Mario. It's-a de egg-a man."

So my first guess was wrong.

I don't think my mother purchased much from him. There was an A&P at the end of our street.

ricpic said...

Question: how long does a marriage in which either the husband or wife bugs their partner with "Have you seen my socks?" last? I mean isn't that one of the most important decisions a married person makes early in the marriage, NOT to drive the partner batty with needful minutiae?

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

So, that would be eggs, bread, milk, and potato chips.

All stuff my mother had delivered to our door at one time or another but then stopped.

I see that some people now get water softener salt delivered. Jugged water. Groceries.

How do the guys announce themselves when they knock at the door?

I really don't know, but I suspect that something wonderful has been lost, probably forever.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

There used to be a truck that would drive through South Philly selling fish. Maybe there still is. I liked that scene in Oliver where he wakes up in his new bedroom in the rich guy's house and the cart vendors are all singing as they make their way down the street. Oliver Reed as Bill Sykes scared the crap out of me.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I guess maybe the red, red roses lady didn't have a cart. Just a basket. Oh, well.

AJ Lynch said...

Heh I think I am now too stupid to understand this blog. I blame it on Bush. Without Bush, we would not have had Obama who gave us Trump which may have led to CL's psychiatric mumbo jumbo.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Oliver Reed as Bill Sykes scared the crap out of me.

The child catcher in Chitty, Chitty, Bang, Bang too.

Flying monkeys in The Wizard of Oz.

The list goes on.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

You Want a HERO?

Chip Ahoy said...

I should say, nice sketches there. Did you draw them?

ndspinelli said...

The most obtuse thread I've read in a while. We need less obtuse and more direct in our culture. We elected the most direct President since Harry Truman. People are tired of obtuse..present company excepted. Y'all seem to love it.

Darcy said...

Chick, I knew this was your post as soon as I started reading. Hehe. Hot nerd!

ricpic said...

I'm not obtuse. I may be dense but I'm not obtuse. :^0

Sixty Grit said...

Some of us are acute.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Which reminds me: Today is the workout day that I do dumbbell side bends for the obliques.

Lem said...

the book I'm reading touches up on this topic. the closing of the American mind.

Methadras said...

I am Lem's Levity Super-Ego.

Methadras said...

However, I have been confused for being its Id is well. :D

ricpic said...

Here's a comment at Zero Hedge that gave me a laugh:

When Trump is inaugurated it will be the first time in history a billionaire moves into public housing vacated by a black family.

chickelit said...

I'm just glad spinelli didn't accuse me of being abstruse.

Thanks, darcy, and congrats on your engagement! Did you get a rock for Halloween?

chickelit said...

@chip: Not my sketches. I put links in to originals.

chickelit said...

Lem said...
the book I'm reading touches up on this topic. the closing of the American mind.

I would like to read more about that, Lem.

MamaM said...

Not my sketches

Well, I liked the conclusion drawn with the last line!

MamaM said...

Now I'm well and truly confused.

I looked up obtuse and what popped up first? annoyingly insensitive and slow to understand.

That can't be it. What's next? Lacking perception or intellect
Maybe for some, I mused, but that certainly doesn't apply to the author of the thread, the majority of commenters posting or the material presented.

Pressing in I find: not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form. Nope, that's getting colder not warmer. Word Etymology was next:
Obtuse early 15c., "dull, blunted," from Middle French obtus (fem. obtuse), from Latin obtusus "blunted, dull," also used figuratively, past participle of obtundere "to beat against, make dull," from ob "against" (see ob-) + tundere "to beat," from PIE *(s)tud-e- "to beat, strike, push, thrust," from root *(s)teu- "to push, stick, knock, beat" (source also of Latin tudes "hammer," Sanskrit tudati "he thrusts"). Sense of "stupid" is first found c. 1500.

Fun but not helpful. Merriam Webster however, saved the day, or sort of saved the day and then fudged it up again with difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression

Since I wouldn't go so far as to say chickelit's not been clear or precise in the thoughts presented, I'll have to settle for difficult to comprehend as the explanation for why someone would find this post and thread obtuse.

And if Nd decides to come back in the hope of receiving something like a glimmer of light, or a sharper angle from which to approach this matter, he can hie over to the Pepsi thread for a clue to the riddle.

ndspinelli said...

Mama, Look up "tedious."

chickelit said...

MamaM said...Well, I liked the conclusion drawn with the last line!

Thank you MamaM!

ndspinelli said...

chick, "Difficult to comprehend" is what I meant by obtuse. And I said the "thread" was obtuse, although I have difficulty understanding much of what you write. You're smarter than me. Lecturing Mama could have simply done what she preaches, and asked me what I meant by obtuse. If anyone knows ANYTHING about me it is you ask me a straight question, and I'll give you a straight answer.

Trooper York said...


Darcy said...

Thank you, chick! Yes, I did receive a very nice ring. We created the design together and love it.

Our wedding is going to be at the home of a retired Denver Broncos player. Just a small gathering. Dec. 10th.

Sixty Grit said...

You know Peyton Manning? Too cool!

deborah said...

Darce is living the fairy tale...and she deserves it :)

Darcy said...

It's not Peyton. Haha. But my sweetie has played golf with Peyton and really likes him.

Aww Deb! It feels like a fairy tale, for sure.

I met Mike Shanahan at a Trump rally recently. He shared some very warm, personal experiences with Trump. It is pretty clear the media has smeared a pretty decent (if a little naughty sometimes) guy.

Sixty Grit said...

I wish you all the best, Darce, you deserve no less. I am very happy for you.

chickelit said...

@darcy: Caribbean honeymoon?

ndspinelli said...

Darcy, I'm very happy for you. Over the years you have been an intelligent, positive, influence on this testosterone heavy blog. I'm guessing it's Cookie Gilchrist's house.

ndspinelli said...

Wait.. Cookie's dead. Floyd Little?

MamaM said...

It sounds to me like Darcy is living real life and finding a place to be and connect in meaningful ways. And that's the wonderful heart of the matter. Congratulations, Darcy!

Want to know what's the opposite of tedious?








May your marriage be all that and more, a shared dance revealing the balance between moving in sync and flowing in freedom! I'm grateful to you Darcy, for helping me find strength and voice at a time in my life when that was needed and for offering me the gift of reconciliation. Both mattered. I wish you all the best. Sincerely, MamaM

Sixty Grit said...

I like what MamaM wrote, and I would only add one thing to that list - tennis.

Darcy said...

Oh, you all are just wonderful. Thank you! That was like a group hug!

And thank you, MamaM. I am grateful to you as well. It is remarkable to me how often what sticks with me and inspires me are the moments in my life when I learned and had to extend grace. The hard kind - because that's what it is all about. You inspired one of those moments for me.

Thanks again, all.

Darcy said...

@chick - Probably not Caribbean, but likely a warm place with plenty of golf. Maybe Palm Springs.

@Nick - Heh. This player was on the team last year when they won. :)

@Sixty *hug* Yes, tennis too. Although he is wayyyy better than me and I've already had a meltdown on the court w/him. We've agreed that he probably shouldn't coach me. lol