I both liked and disliked Robin Williams. Some of his performances were brilliant, reflective and funny. But, more often he was 'over the top' and cringe worthy. I was often uncomfortable, embarrassed and a saddened when Williams would go off onto one of his improves. It was as if he didn't have an off switch.
Like watching a manic depressive person in their manic state but with everyone encouraging the self destructive mania instead of attempting to bring the afflicted person down to a more sustainable mood level. (My first husband turned out to be bi-polar which got worse as time went on). Encouraging someone for our own enjoyment.
Very sad. He was brilliant and troubled. Then again many artists with true genius are.
I turned away from him because of his politics but I did watch his last sitcom with Buffy and it was pretty funny. He charmed me and I was willing to give him another chance.
Insty has a link to a clip from a Robin Williams movie where he has a student read from Robert Herrick's poem "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time"
But that reminded me of a profoundly depressed and depressing version of Saul Bellow's play "Seize the Day" that Robin Williams was in.
In that you see him play a character who is being crushed by life and when you see the deeply sad and depressed countenance he brings to the work you realize that he might not have had to dig to deep to find that much despair.
Lifelong struggle aggravated by addiction. (See also, Philip Seymour Hoffman.) The guy had depth and character and range. (Id.) Say what you will about the hyperactive mode and characters he defaulted to, they were funny, and he could also do wicked freaking scary (Insomnia) and sincere (Mrs. Doubtfire, Dead Poets Society, Birdcage, though it tended toward treacly and ohthehumanity in Patch Adams and Fisher King IMO). I'd watch him even in stupid movies. He raised the entertainment bar. That's a good legacy. RIP.
AA-the link goes to Error 404. Is that the professional golfers on cocaine freaking out wondering "why are these 300 people walking behind me so slow? Look in the hole there might be a snake!" bit?
A family always thinks they are in some way responsible for a suicide.
They should remember how much he made everybody laugh. Here's the full scene in "Aladdin" link. Even if you don't like Disney and have never seen it, he completely stole the show. I'm sure that many of the ad libbed jokes and impressions flew over the heads of kids. How many celebrity impressions did he do there?
Winters got great treatment @ the Institute of Living in Hartford. I don't think Winters had the addiction issues Williams did.
Williams was clean and sober for an extended period. He went off the wagon filming a very shitty movie titled The Great White in Skagway, Alaska. My son worked in Skagway for 2 summers. I spoke w/ some locals the summer after the filming and they all had wild Robin Williams stories. Alaska is a tough place to stay sober, particularly in the winter.
It was The Big White in 2005 where Williams went off the wagon. In the years prior he did some good serious roles. Insomnia and the very disturbing One Hour Photo. He did Death to Scmoochy around that time also which I found hilarious. He had his addictions and his acting under control. The making of Popeye in the 80's is an infamous tale of cocaine ruining a movie.
In that you see him play a character who is being crushed by life and when you see the deeply sad and depressed countenance he brings to the work you realize that he might not have had to dig to deep to find that much despair.
This... and what DBQ said. What DBQ noted is why I drifted away as a fan. I think his warmth came from his ability to profoundly understand others sadness, but that's because he was equally sad. At times, it made for a good performance, but too often, it was too cringe worthy.
I just don't get it. I know plenty of people who's lives are so incredibly worse than his has been, with far less success, wealth, luck, experiences and memories. His life was full beyond what most people can ever hope for. A beautiful young wife, and children, many friends, the respect of his peers, lots of money, and freedom to do virtually anything he wanted with his time. How can he justify throwing that away, and with it the joy he brought to those around him? I'd like him to explain that to some homeless guy sleeping alone in wet dirty clothing under a bridge with the dull ache of rotting teeth that he has no hope of relieving, and yet who still sleeps it off and wakes up to face the next day. Explain it to him, and then see if your troubles make the grade, dude.
That's really simplifying it, bago. The reverse of your opinion is that since he had everything the depression must have been unbearably painful for him to give it all up.
It is simple to me. So what would he tell the homeless man? What complex nuance would he include to convince that guy or anyone else of the need for this solution?
I support a person's right to off themselves, but just like stealing a loaf of bread, you need a good reason to take from others. Maybe, I'm just too simple, but thank god I don't have the depth to think myself into that absurdity.
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, or how lucky he has been. He was not an imbecile. He knew these things, but chose to focus on himself. That may be a disfunction of some sort, but we all have those and yet find a way to control them. If he killed someone else, would these justifications suffice.
I don't accept Althouse's idea of suicide as self-murder, but I do see it as a form of theft and cruelty when you have people who love you. When you have the situation he had, it's like stealing bread when you own a bakery.
"If the homeless man isn't offing himself, why do you think that is?".
Because he controls himself, and still respects what he has - he has gratitude even for only living in squalor. He could justify stealing and raping, but he may also not do that. Why not?
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, or how lucky he has been. He was not an imbecile. He knew these things, but chose to focus on himself.
But severe depression distorts a person's thinking. If he was indeed suffering from that, his decision may have seemed rational and not selfish to him.
I suffered crushing depression for more than a year before getting help. I would have done anything to end the pain in my brain. I don't accept the half-baked notions about depression offered by those who have not experienced it.
Cancer and depression are diseases. You cannot will cancer to end, just like you cannot will depression to end. Both require a medical response.
I struggled with deep depression for a long time (it still has a tendency to nip at my ankles) and I agree with Bagoh.
Yes, it's a heavy, heavy weight, but there's also a deep selfishness and lack of perspective that comes into play. Depression is a horrible condition but I know there is still a choice, to embrace it or to push against it.
I was a huge Robin Williams fan my whole life, watching Mork and Mindy almost before my memory, being shaped by his peak of success movies in the late 80s to mid-90s when I was in high school and college.
He had a lot to offer, but the lack of perspective is what got him,which is due to depression but also due to not being exposed to deeper needs and harder lives. It's a cowardice of sorts too, not being willing to put up with pain for the sake of those who love and need you.
His recent show didn't do well. The writing was really bad overall, with awful stock supporting characters, but he was funny in it. He hasn't had a hit movie in a while. But he was still able to influence and help so many, so much more than most people in the world.
He could have brought joy to those in need, like so many of his characters did. But he got trapped and choose to embrace his shadows.
Which is very sad. Such a dark mark on all his work now.
He was a great talent and it is a very sad loss in the entertainment world as there really is no one else like him anymore. End of an era.
At the end of the day, I've never given up either, Paddy O, and nor have I entirely given up my boxing gloves (having only taken them up in mid-age but since been trying, however successfully or unsuccessfully, to back up from their use).
The thing I consider amongst the most important about all of that is keeping in mind a sense of compassion + nurturing the gift of empathy.
rcommal wrote: LOL. That "clearly" combined with two "nots": It's a stitch, those threads.
I too despise double negatives. The US Patent Office specializes in testing using the double negative. The best work around is to nuke both and to assess what's left standing:
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, =
Clearly he was mentally ill to the point of understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others,
Plus a little bit of humility, that true thing that tends to help people from judging too much, too harshly, and--above all!--*too* **starkly,** which latter thing, in particular, is a downfall to which more attention needs to be paid, on account of its connection to if not hubris, then at least inattention in a fateful way.
Paddy, I suspect you and I have the same type of depression...a real nuisance that requires medication. Without it I am in a constant state of 'I hate myself'/'I wish was dead,' but I've never come close to suicide because I maintained the perspective of what it would do to my family. My depression is more like diabetes that needs treatment, in this case neurotransmitter boosting.
I think there is a black despair that goes beyond this, like rheumatoid arthritis goes beyond osteoarthritis, that distorts one's thinking so badly it wins out in the end.
rcommal said... Plus a little bit of humility, that true thing that tends to help people from judging too much, too harshly, and--above all!--*too* **starkly,** which latter thing, in particular, is a downfall to which more attention needs to be paid, on account of its connection to if not hubris, then at least inattention in a fateful way.
Johannes Stark certainly had a downfall (from the highest pinnacle); hubris and fate were involved.
If he had killed someone else to ease his "pain", would these problems he suffered with be defended like this? Would you tell the family of those robbed of their loved ones what you are saying here? He may have the right to rob himself of life, but what he did to those around him is the same effect or even worse on the family and friends robbed in the process.
Terrible things are done due to "sickness". Rapists, pedophiles, wife beaters, kleptomaniacs, homophobes, racists, those addicted to dutch ovens all have a sickness too, but we expect them to control their impulse to selfishness. I expect a man with the resources of Williams to do at least that. Yes I judge. I'm fine with it. I'm not perfect, and people don't hesitate to remind me of it, and I'm still here to endure it rather than taking the easy out.
P.S. I don't think that phase of mine above was actually a double negative either. It does not factor out to equaling the opposite of the point intended. It is arithmetically sound, and if not, then it's poetic styling, which is above criticism.
I don't think suicide is simply an "easy way out" because it goes against our instinct for self-preservation, which is the mightiest force there is. I was just reminded of this by the death of my cousin who had been diagnosed with stage-4 lung cancer at the age of 82. She fought it tooth and nail, undergoing chemo and radiation therapy. Not a picnic, but she wanted to keep on living. For most of us, that's the key thing--life. So to give it up willingly, I think, something even more powerful than that basic instinct has to be at work.
Some time back I had a procedure done which required Demerol. It was a mildly pleasant high, but nothing to get all radiant about. But after the drug wore off, I suffered the most profound depression ever. It was truly evil and black. I've always been aware that life sucks, but I suddenly realized just how bleak and futile in all its prospects life truly was. The next day I was back to my usual self, but that depression was memorable. I don't see how it's possible to make it through life in such a state........Maybe that's why drug addicts go to such desperate lengths to get their fix. They don't want to get high. They want to avoid the crashing downer.....,,Maybe that's what did Williams in. Not the drugs, but the crash afterward.......His suicide is scary. He had money, fame, the best professional help available, healthy children, a hot wife, and he couldn't find a way to balance the equation. Such a death makes us all feel vulnerable.
We've got to walk that lonesome highway all by ourselves.
Each of us has done some walking. I have mentioned what I have been through, some of which mirrors what Robin Williams went through. Yeah, heart surgery is tough, but after my time on the heart-lung bypass machine I found that I had lost the ability to be depressed.
Curious, but I'll take it.
Don't miss depression at all.
And after growing up in a town where 4 of my peers became a suicide "cluster", as the fashionable epidemiologists call such things these days, I had decided decades ago that was not the path for me.
So, I am still here, but over the decades I came to know just how bad the pain of depression can be. I would wish it on my worst enemies. Double.
So I understand how that kind of ideation can form, and I am sad he chose to act on it, as we never know what tomorrow holds.
End of life issues are different - as I have writen here before, I have a great admiration for the actor Richard Farnsworth, how he carried himself, how he lived, and while I might quibble with how he chose to die, I understand that choice.
He was 80, and while that's not that much different than 63, as someone who is older than 63 I like to think there are still some good years ahead and that I it's a shame that Robin Williams decided against living them.
Ultimately, it was his choice, I have a tiny bit of insight into what was going on, but one can never know what another person is going through.
It's not about wealth or family or a nice place in Tiburon. Those things were not enough to anchor him here. I can only imagine that he was in a great deal of pain and he sought to end it. Sometimes that's all a person can do.
He was just back in Hazelden for drug rehab, only a month ago. He looked awful, gaunt, rumpled, sad. No life in his eyes.
One assumes depression, but who knows?
I've been down that road. Despair is an evil son of a bitch.
In its grasp, one cannot logically answer Bagoh's question, yet you don't care. Nothing penetrates it. Not anger, love, kindness, logic, argument, food, getting high, etc.
The irrational brain triumphs, enslaving rational thought into performing the only apparently logical act, what turns out to be a selfish and permanent crime against your family, one that may be repeated in them, now that the impermissible is done.
Suicide is the most selfish act. It's the most hurtful and the most destructive to those left behind to deal with the pain each and every day. A pain that never goes away.
I'm with Bagho on this in his 11:31. I don't get depression. I am never depressed to the extent that is it crippling. Yah...I might get blue once in a while but am not really depressed. Just bummed out or sad for a while. There is just too much to enjoy in life even when life sucks momentarily. This too shall pass.
However I also agree with this I suffered crushing depression for more than a year before getting help. I would have done anything to end the pain in my brain. I don't accept the half-baked notions about depression offered by those who have not experienced it.
I haven't experienced it, so I can't comprehend it. I also don't condemn those who have depression or blame them for the mood. Just like I've never had a compound fracture and can't imagine that pain either.
I have however lived with someone who was manic/depressive and as I said, his condition got worse and worse. It was Hell trying to cope with the moods. Hell trying to help lift or suppress the mood swings.
I feel very sorry for everyone involved. Robin Williams, his family. What a freaking waste of his life.
I might disagree a bit on the waste part - he did some good work, and, according to some, some good works as well. He made me laugh, and that has value to me. I think he brought a lot of laughter to a lot of other people, too. which is one reason I am willing to overlook his politics and note his passing with sadness.
In the end, we might not agree with how he chose to end his life, much of his life was not a waste. Wasted, sure, for many years he was, but like many bipolar people, he was probably self medicating.
It's a shame no one could reach him, but that's the depression part of that illness for you.
For me, in my bleakest phase, it was my lawyer, a deeply religious and ethical man, who spoke, what was no doubt a platitude, that gave me the courage to go on.
He also told me about a client of his who was in the same straits who took a different route. That was pretty scary.
So I am thankful that a good man spoke kind and useful words to me, provided a parable of what might happen were I to choose a different path, and that I was able to hear him.
Yes. I didn't mean a waste as in he did nothing with his life. Williams created some lasting worthwhile and entertaining works of art. He will be remembered long after I'm taking my final dirt nap.
I meant a waste in how he ended his life and some of how he lived it in substance abuse. How he hurt some of the people around him. How he could have gotten the help needed, maybe he tried very hard, maybe he thought he could master it by himself, but didn't get it under control. These things happen daily. It is only because of the fame of Williams that THIS is a big deal to people who aren't really involved.
I can't comprehend what it going on in anyone else's head. It is just a shame.
I applaud those here who have had the courage to speak about their depression. My beautiful daughter battles it w/ courage and honesty. She does not try and hide her illness. She does not allow it to make her a victim, either. Two years ago she had a brutal nervous breakdown. We went up to Minneapolis on an hours notice and ended up spending a week. It is a daily battle, just like diabetes is for me. But, a great shrink[there aren't many great ones] and meds has my dear daughter doing pretty well now. Depression is a very treatable disease. Like most diseases, it has different severities. It is not just being sad. It is being sad X 10k.
Williams suffered the double whammy of depression and addiction. They are ugly cousins. It is rare for a person to kill themselves w/o using booze and/or pills to give them the "courage." Our primal will to live requires that "assist." If investigators do not find evidence of alcohol or drugs in a toxicology report that is a big red flag. I had a retired homicide detective work for me back in the 90's. Suicide was his specialty. He taught me aa lot.
Bags, in a true case of serious depression the body takes over the mind chemically. It's beyond an average person's ability to overcome that once it's in full bloom even with a strong conscious effort.
I'm not against guns, but I'm fairly against guns for me, because I know that there were times, especially in my late teens and early 20s, that my darkness got so bad I may have used a gun against myself.
But who knows? Why I'm still around has a lot to do with the reasoning I wrote before. As dark as it was, as impossible as everything was, I realized that other people were in my life and how it would affect them (even if I couldn't see why it should). I made small and big choices to find a way forward, and one way was to see life as more courageous than death. Instead of killing myself, I would let go all the things I thought I had to do or be. I would die to my old life. It was actually a new beginning of freedom, to kill myself but keep on living. Live, at first, in light of the fact there were others. Live as a conscious deliberate belief in hope, rather than something I felt. I had to consciously choose life despite all the depression and frustrations.
Worked out. As it would have for Robin Williams.
Just heard the press conference about it. Slit wrists and hanging by a belt and a door? That's rage against the self.
Many heartfelt expressions and revelations in the comments here. Thank you for sharing with us.
As Sixty says we all walk alone in the end and you don't really know until you walk a mile in someones shoes.
I don't think it is for us to judge someone who kills themselves. I can not comprehend why someone would do something like this. In that I am with bags. But as many of you have said depression is an ugly and terrible thing. We can all understand someone who commits suicide because they are in great physical pain. Maybe mental pain works the same way.
Artists are often troubled and tortured. I know that is trite and a cliché but it is still true. Robin Williams is just one in a long line who self destructed.
Many, many years ago he was in the hotel room with John Belushi right before he died. He managed to survive for decades after that. They were in equivalent positions in their careers and lives at that time. There is something in that. I just don't know what.
I enjoyed his last sitcom "The Crazy Ones" even though it wasn't all that great. But what they did was show bloopers for the last five minutes of every show where he would do crazy stuff and the cast would all crack up or try to riff off what he did. They seemed to be having so much fun and seemed to like each other so much that you just had to smile and it made you enjoy the episodes even more. He seemed to enjoy mentoring the younger actors and was warm and personable and fun.
Losing that must have been a blow. I bet if the show was still in production he would have been fine.
What if our culture just let him get high and drink, and lived with it? Would he ever have done this?
Maybe some people do better with a little escape. Maybe we expect too much conformity and perfection from each other. Humans have been self medicating forever, and maybe some of us have just evolved to needing it. Churchill and many others from previous generations did OK before all this "Rehabilitation" stuff became expected. Some day it will be seen in the same light we see lobotomies today.
"Maybe some people do better with a little escape."
The trouble is we remember those who somehow make it, like Keith Richards or Winston Churchill. But those escapes take so, so many people at all stages of life. The ones who make it make is seem romantic.
Humanity doesn't like looking into the gutter of failure, so we ignore the vast amount of people whose lives are ruined or never got a start because in escaping they never were present.
I have friends who became alcoholics, and it's enormously sad how much they have lost simply because they wanted to escape, and ended up escaping every bit of happiness they had or could have.
I get the cynicism here about depression. It's overused as an excuse. It's morphed into a catch-all excuse for bad behavior because it converts the fatigue and frustration which come with the struggles of daily life into a scientifically approved condition. One possibly requiring medication. A lot of psychological diagnoses have morphed in this way. Look what happened to post-traumatic stress disorder. It was developed for war veterans, people who had been actually shot at and bombed over long periods of time. I hear about PTSD all the time defending cases in which from people have been in (relatively minor) car accidents. Their doctors tell them they've got PTSD and presto, those bills are claimed as damages.
But a little perspective, please: When someone puts a rope around his neck and hangs himself, he really is depressed. Maybe remember him kindly for his good work and sweet character? And for persevering for as long as he did? Dang!
I haven't gotten through the entire thread and don't know how I'll ever process a light this bright in our lives (that we took for granted) turning himself off, but am inclined to agree with BagO (although I know I'm not supposed to). Paddy's response gives me hope. Yes, our brains are still organs that aren't always completely in everyone's control to the same extent but I can't imagine why he wouldn't spend some time with the anguished and helpless and see what that does. Depression is biological but suicide IIRC is social (i.e. it varies by the society). I think in a society where people don't get a sense of selfishness and being alone they wouldn't do it. I think the world must be too big a place for some people. But then a mind as unusual as his must have been unusual in other ways also.
I heard some commenter say that one hit of coke changes the brain in a way that can account for never crawling back completely as we'd hoped and assumed he would.
HOnestly, most of us are just talking out our asses or being personal about it and I guess who knows why we wouldn't. My personal reaction is I'm mad as hell at the sumbitch and don't understand why if nothing else they can't understand their obligation to others. But then, it's not like he didn't do so much for us already. I guess at 63 he figured he'd done as much and took care of his kids and obligations and guessed it was never going to get better. And yet, how could all that time not have taught him to deal with that…
Whatever he needed, apparently we couldn't give it to him. Which makes me think he's an asshole even I know that, as with a lover you'll never figure out no matter how many of your own buttons they can press, you can only get so angry.
But still, I don't have to like how he did this. Not even a note? At least blame it on the world or something external, man. Be angry. Don't just be everybody's everything all the time, too nice to find something other than yourself to hate and feel helpless about. FUck.
Reading through more, I think evolutionarily life is a struggle. I guess we've always felt it's supposed to be one and the ones for whom it isn't in some way can't relate to the regular small joys of overcoming them. The people who should be happiest are the ones we least expect to end up in this way. Such an illness as one beyond the reach of any attempt to find meaning in the world, or at least ease others' suffering, I guess I can't understand.
But I'm not him. What a horror live with to be in a mind beyond even the satisfaction of those sorts of needs. Some things in life are truly a curse.
Couldn't he have tried ECT? I heard that's supposed to be a panacea.
Running out of things to appreciate is the common sickness of our day. We're all susceptible to it, and it's contagious. Boy, is it contagious. How many people do you know who truly go around finding things to learn and do, and be rationally inspired by, and don't mind sharing that with as many people who care to indulge and be touched by it?
And what makes it even more ironic is that there's no place in the world where I find more of that than in Northern CA, where he lived.
I wonder if he was affected by all the bullshit going on around the world lately. I know I have been.
I want to understand why he did it, and know that there are situations like this in some people, for whom, nothing will break it.
All I know is the work I like the most was Good Will Hunting. I've not appreciated the power of his role as much as everyone else did, but I remembered the way everyone else got the words Ben Affleck told Will at the end:
Fuck you, you don't owe it to yourself man, you owe it to me.
I can't understand how I'll ever be able to see that movie again in the same light.
I am shattered by the knowledge that some of the truly great people I've read from over the years on this thread have either thought of doing the same thing or know the circumstance.
Nd's comments are good. Maybe more openness about it would help. I think there is stigma against moping. He probably felt obliged to entertain. Perhaps he should have just stared at everyone around him with an empty glare, and dared the world to give something back to him in his moment. Is there no one who could have done that?
Take it out on the world. Hell, take it out on anyone. Blame someone or something! Whatever it takes to confront it instead of letting it envelop you.
Channel it. Focus it. I have to believe our other destructive emotions must have some use… Why not for the sake of destroying this?
I think if you're that depressed you might just be too good a person to use the body's/mind's destructive capacity even for the sake of destroying what's destroying you.
Shrinks who change your life in the way some people really need them to are indeed very rare. Talent comes in all forms. As does the way people relate to each other.
"Bagoh, Your lack of knowledge or insight is stunning."
Perhaps I'm dense, but it's not a lack of knowledge or insight. Nearly my entire life I've been surrounded by alcoholics, drug addicts, and people racked with depression. My life of family, friends and lovers has been full of them. Some killed themselves. I have oodles of insight, knowledge and experience first hand, and frankly I'm tired of the excuses. It is the problem like most victimology, and I think in many cases the constant push from others to get sober is cruel and counter productive. I'm just tired of the lifelong struggle dealing with this stuff. It's always the same over and over. I'm exhausted by the effort, and disgusted with the results.
Even with the way people pretend to care, it's always usually from such an opportunistic perspective.
Who ever takes the time to really be with someone who might need them… for days, weeks even… to the point of actually putting their own life on hold?
Maybe the rest of us breathe life into delusions of what will always be there for us… even if it's just in the form of a search. The perfect love. The perfect bit of knowledge and enlightenment.
There's this Hebrew song I like that's very pretty. The singer describes his lover, and the narrator changes to the woman singing it just as the verses change into the chorus.
The entire set of lyrics I find beautiful. But especially the last one, which I find apt:
One moment before the sunset I embrace you And my heart, like a ball of fire, dives and falls with you
Then comes the darkness The magic disappears Leaving only the depth of your eyes and the sadness of the world…
R&B wrote: I heard some commenter say that one hit of coke changes the brain in a way that can account for never crawling back completely as we'd hoped and assumed he would.
I tried it once in the 80's and it didn't do shit. Maybe it was a quality issue? Or maybe it did change me but I never felt a benefit nor a buzz.
Lol. A guy I knew once living in the decrepit part of the kooky city would do hits of that from his key while sitting on our porch and dismiss it by likening it to "10 cups of coffee".
Maybe that's why I don't drink coffee.
Weed never did anything for me until I suffered a debilitating, to the point of contemplating an end, physical ailment. For two years I somehow found a way to barely live.
Then a stoner helped me out.
Suffice it to say, my perspective on that sort of regulation changed overnight.
As did the enjoyment I was able to get out it. ;-)
But I'm all better now. Sometimes euphoria has a legitimate purpose, though.
I just read a good piece in the Telegraph that gets at what Amartel said above about depression being "overused as an excuse," which is maybe what's bothering some of you here.
Here's what Amartel said: I get the cynicism here about depression. It's overused as an excuse. It's morphed into a catch-all excuse for bad behavior because it converts the fatigue and frustration which come with the struggles of daily life into a scientifically approved condition. One possibly requiring medication. A lot of psychological diagnoses have morphed in this way. Look what happened to post-traumatic stress disorder.
And here's the Telegraph:
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
The majority of those claiming to be depressed are suffering perhaps from temporary low mood. It’ll pass. Talking therapies, that awful 2014 buzzword "mindfulness", perhaps a mild 10mg dose of Citalopram, a little bit of time and patience, will sort it.
When we misuse words like "depressed" something insidious and destructive happens. They become part of our vernacular, their meaning is diluted, it becomes much harder to give weight and necessary attention to those who really are suffering from depression. Real depression is something so serious, so life-threatening, so heavy, that it is more than disingenuous to bandy the word around lightly – it is dangerous.
and
Depression is like being forced to wear a cloak made of lead. You don’t get to choose when to put it on and take it off. It is a second skin which gradually seeps into your own, real skin and poisons it until you are a walking, toxic, corrosive bundle of infectious awfulness. The thought of suicide is the only real respite and the only chink of light at the end of the tunnel. You can "pull yourself together" only inasmuch as you can make yourself three feet taller. Whether you’re alone in a squalid bedsit with tinfoil on the windows or in a 17-bedroom mansion with a loving family and the career of your dreams makes no difference.
Exactly. Thank you. The "lead cloak" description is spot on. The word has been abused and misused dishonestly for opportunistic reasons, from injecting drama to injecting substances. Semantic overreach.
It's just an awful death because it makes you believe that all that joy you felt, that you'd commune with him on, wasn't real. If it was just a show and underneath it he was a wreck, why couldn't he find a way to express it - or at least warn others? Why the need for a facade all the time? Just say: I'm depressed. Come out and say it. He did with the substances.
I'm looking at my favorite stills and scenes and other shots where I see him and just think, "Phony." If you faked it that well, what the fuck was the point of me getting any enjoyment out of it either.
And I'm rearranging the memories and meanings he helped me develop over my life with the sense of loss of a kid whose parents are divorcing and a dad who, it's now revealed, cheated for God only knows how long.
Why didn't he just go to sleep? Tomorrow is another day. He did it for 63 years. One night at a time. Go for a jog, have a drink, get in the bed, and make it to one more day. So much at stake, and it was so easy to hold on to it. Just do nothing, or any of a million other things tonight, but not that one thing. Just don't do that. It's the only way you can fail at this point.
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
Oh, good Lord. BULLshit. Yet another example of one-size-fits-all crap, and in this case, a dangerous and stupid notion which at its core reveals a fatal shallowness of thinking.
Consider, in detail, for yourselves:
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
Honestly, if that's the sort of "should be" existence to which some would like to exile the "that depressed," then why--for the love of God, the respect for intelligence, and the commitment to logic--would any seriously depressed person ***NOT*** opt for suicide as an alternative (which alternative at least preserves self-determination, a not unreasonable factor in values)?
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Man, oh day. What the hell of a case are you guys trying to make, anyway?
"I'm sorry I couldn't figure out why you and not me" (and vice versa)? Or, not. Who knows? Likely no one, not even those sincerely trying to understand. Nor do know the most narrative power-hungry among us, and that is so no matter how attractive they make ruthlessness seem.
"Depression is like being forced to wear a cloak made of lead."
I get this. I've been here. For a number of years.
But it's not an issue of turning it on or off. People deal with all sorts of disabilities that are overwhelming.
The issue is to embrace it or to push against it. That's the difference between alcoholics who succumb to the worst of it and alcoholics who can speak of sobriety for years and a rebuilt life.
Someone with real depression shouldn't be locked away. They should be shown there is light. So they know which way there is to walk with the cloak of lead around them.
Depression is very treatable. It's not something that should condemn people to being locked away, either by themselves or by sympathetic sounding article writers. One may not feel any hope in life, but one can choose to hope for that hope, finding treatment.
Williams had access to everything. Depression can be fought. Not fixed in one swoop or turned off. But it can be fought.
Williams fought and pressed forward at one point. He didn't this time. He lost the fight.
Which is very sad for his family. I don't think it takes away from what he did before, as the underlying fight added texture to his roles, especially his dramatic roles. Too bad he ultimately chose the way of Neil Perry.
I have found this thread to one of the most illuminating ever at Lem's. One of the reasons I read and post occasionally here. I have particularly moved by Bagoh20's remarks, because I understand them...fact is his concepts are what have gotten me through many through spots. I have to say the same for Rhythm & Balls, somehow I get the feeling he has been where I have been, maybe not exactly, but we felt the same at times. That said, everyone's comments here have been honest and that is what matters to me...they are contributions to awareness, not negative dismissals.
You know what? Given a lot of what you're saying, I am inspired to posit a cruel counter-view as well:
Maybe those people left behind aren't as worthy as you think for pity and compassion. Perhaps they abandoned, or at least didn't bother to help as much they could have, the person who finally, at the last, gave up.
Ever think of, much less consider, that counter-factual?
Now, I am absolutely not putting forth that as my personal opinion or analysis, so don't you all, or any one of you, dare try to put forth otherwise.
What *****I am***** doing is to challenge you to consider things as if it's possible to think outside of a number of boxes--and that, while still retaining the ability to view individuals with, at least, great affection if not/not to mention with love?
How easy is it to shoot arrows at the dead, anyway (answer: very). I guess the point is to discourage the still-living (still living) not to become among the dead at whom arrows will be shot. Well, now. That there is one helluva an incentive to not self-murder (so to speak).
97 comments:
Disney paid his detox for years (and probably did him no favors), but there was more inside him.
Like Jonathan Winters, he could never turn off.
A wild, brilliant guy.
Shazbat.
Winters made it through tough times and lived to be 87.
My reaction to Robin Williams' death is shock and sadness.
I both liked and disliked Robin Williams. Some of his performances were brilliant, reflective and funny. But, more often he was 'over the top' and cringe worthy. I was often uncomfortable, embarrassed and a saddened when Williams would go off onto one of his improves. It was as if he didn't have an off switch.
Like watching a manic depressive person in their manic state but with everyone encouraging the self destructive mania instead of attempting to bring the afflicted person down to a more sustainable mood level. (My first husband turned out to be bi-polar which got worse as time went on). Encouraging someone for our own enjoyment.
Very sad. He was brilliant and troubled. Then again many artists with true genius are.
Agree with DBQ's assessment.
I admired his voice impressions most of all. It's a dying art.
R.I.P
I agree wholeheartedly with DBQ.
I turned away from him because of his politics but I did watch his last sitcom with Buffy and it was pretty funny. He charmed me and I was willing to give him another chance.
He died much too young. RIP.
Insty has a link to a clip from a Robin Williams movie where he has a student read from Robert Herrick's poem "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time"
But that reminded me of a profoundly depressed and depressing version of Saul Bellow's play "Seize the Day" that Robin Williams was in.
In that you see him play a character who is being crushed by life and when you see the deeply sad and depressed countenance he brings to the work you realize that he might not have had to dig to deep to find that much despair.
Comedy and tragedy. Two sides of the same coin.
I tired to watch the latest sit com with Robin. He was fine, but the writing was terrible.
Shocking that he killed himself. At least that is what early reports are saying.
asphyxia?
Did he choke to death?
Lifelong struggle aggravated by addiction. (See also, Philip Seymour Hoffman.) The guy had depth and character and range. (Id.) Say what you will about the hyperactive mode and characters he defaulted to, they were funny, and he could also do wicked freaking scary (Insomnia) and sincere (Mrs. Doubtfire, Dead Poets Society, Birdcage, though it tended toward treacly and ohthehumanity in Patch Adams and Fisher King IMO). I'd watch him even in stupid movies.
He raised the entertainment bar. That's a good legacy. RIP.
He made me laugh, even when he was doing the cringe worthy stuff.
He was a crazy genius.
His bit on golf he did a few years back was perfection.
lots of f bombs, however.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSXMS8ABAAU
To me, he always seemed very sad, so it sort of blunted the humor for me. RIP.
I feel very sorry for his wife and his three children. A family always thinks they are in some way responsible for a suicide.
AA-the link goes to Error 404. Is that the professional golfers on cocaine freaking out wondering "why are these 300 people walking behind me so slow? Look in the hole there might be a snake!" bit?
A family always thinks they are in some way responsible for a suicide.
They should remember how much he made everybody laugh. Here's the full scene in "Aladdin" link. Even if you don't like Disney and have never seen it, he completely stole the show. I'm sure that many of the ad libbed jokes and impressions flew over the heads of kids. How many celebrity impressions did he do there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G9T-ZI5eLk
Winters got great treatment @ the Institute of Living in Hartford. I don't think Winters had the addiction issues Williams did.
Williams was clean and sober for an extended period. He went off the wagon filming a very shitty movie titled The Great White in Skagway, Alaska. My son worked in Skagway for 2 summers. I spoke w/ some locals the summer after the filming and they all had wild Robin Williams stories. Alaska is a tough place to stay sober, particularly in the winter.
I always loved him in What Dreams May Come, about him dying and going to heaven, trying to get his wife out of hell.
She committed suicide.
It was The Big White in 2005 where Williams went off the wagon. In the years prior he did some good serious roles. Insomnia and the very disturbing One Hour Photo. He did Death to Scmoochy around that time also which I found hilarious. He had his addictions and his acting under control. The making of Popeye in the 80's is an infamous tale of cocaine ruining a movie.
The Birdcage! When Williams was under control he was outstanding. He, Lane, Wiest, Hackman and Azaria were all perfect.
In that you see him play a character who is being crushed by life and when you see the deeply sad and depressed countenance he brings to the work you realize that he might not have had to dig to deep to find that much despair.
This... and what DBQ said. What DBQ noted is why I drifted away as a fan. I think his warmth came from his ability to profoundly understand others sadness, but that's because he was equally sad. At times, it made for a good performance, but too often, it was too cringe worthy.
So sad.
Always liked him with a script. I thought his ad libs weren't that funny. Being witty and quick minded aren't the same.
And he could be damn annoying. But good actor. RIP.
Winters was bi-polar and suffered nervous breakdowns but lived through it.
I just don't get it. I know plenty of people who's lives are so incredibly worse than his has been, with far less success, wealth, luck, experiences and memories. His life was full beyond what most people can ever hope for. A beautiful young wife, and children, many friends, the respect of his peers, lots of money, and freedom to do virtually anything he wanted with his time. How can he justify throwing that away, and with it the joy he brought to those around him? I'd like him to explain that to some homeless guy sleeping alone in wet dirty clothing under a bridge with the dull ache of rotting teeth that he has no hope of relieving, and yet who still sleeps it off and wakes up to face the next day. Explain it to him, and then see if your troubles make the grade, dude.
That's really simplifying it, bago. The reverse of your opinion is that since he had everything the depression must have been unbearably painful for him to give it all up.
It is simple to me. So what would he tell the homeless man? What complex nuance would he include to convince that guy or anyone else of the need for this solution?
I support a person's right to off themselves, but just like stealing a loaf of bread, you need a good reason to take from others. Maybe, I'm just too simple, but thank god I don't have the depth to think myself into that absurdity.
Lots of suicides are due to mental illness. Externals don't matter, its what's going in their head.
If the homeless man isn't offing himself, why do you think that is?
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, or how lucky he has been. He was not an imbecile. He knew these things, but chose to focus on himself. That may be a disfunction of some sort, but we all have those and yet find a way to control them. If he killed someone else, would these justifications suffice.
I don't accept Althouse's idea of suicide as self-murder, but I do see it as a form of theft and cruelty when you have people who love you. When you have the situation he had, it's like stealing bread when you own a bakery.
"If the homeless man isn't offing himself, why do you think that is?".
Because he controls himself, and still respects what he has - he has gratitude even for only living in squalor. He could justify stealing and raping, but he may also not do that. Why not?
You want to concentrate on what he HAD, not the excruciating mental pain he was experiencing.
Weak tea at 12:14. He does not kill himself because he is not experiencing the anguish of black despair. Why obfuscate with stealing and rape?
Agree with rc.
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, or how lucky he has been. He was not an imbecile. He knew these things, but chose to focus on himself.
But severe depression distorts a person's thinking. If he was indeed suffering from that, his decision may have seemed rational and not selfish to him.
I suffered crushing depression for more than a year before getting help. I would have done anything to end the pain in my brain. I don't accept the half-baked notions about depression offered by those who have not experienced it.
Cancer and depression are diseases. You cannot will cancer to end, just like you cannot will depression to end. Both require a medical response.
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point* of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others,
LOL. That "clearly" combined with two "nots": It's a stitch, those threads.
*Re: Point
How come only certain people get to decide the point for everyone else?
It's a good question, damn it.
I struggled with deep depression for a long time (it still has a tendency to nip at my ankles) and I agree with Bagoh.
Yes, it's a heavy, heavy weight, but there's also a deep selfishness and lack of perspective that comes into play. Depression is a horrible condition but I know there is still a choice, to embrace it or to push against it.
I was a huge Robin Williams fan my whole life, watching Mork and Mindy almost before my memory, being shaped by his peak of success movies in the late 80s to mid-90s when I was in high school and college.
He had a lot to offer, but the lack of perspective is what got him,which is due to depression but also due to not being exposed to deeper needs and harder lives. It's a cowardice of sorts too, not being willing to put up with pain for the sake of those who love and need you.
His recent show didn't do well. The writing was really bad overall, with awful stock supporting characters, but he was funny in it. He hasn't had a hit movie in a while. But he was still able to influence and help so many, so much more than most people in the world.
He could have brought joy to those in need, like so many of his characters did. But he got trapped and choose to embrace his shadows.
Which is very sad. Such a dark mark on all his work now.
He was a great talent and it is a very sad loss in the entertainment world as there really is no one else like him anymore. End of an era.
Do we yet know what "asphyxiate" means here?
Jimi Hendrix asphyxiated; so did David Carradine. It's a broad term.
At the end of the day, I've never given up either, Paddy O, and nor have I entirely given up my boxing gloves (having only taken them up in mid-age but since been trying, however successfully or unsuccessfully, to back up from their use).
The thing I consider amongst the most important about all of that is keeping in mind a sense of compassion + nurturing the gift of empathy.
....
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rcommal wrote: LOL. That "clearly" combined with two "nots": It's a stitch, those threads.
I too despise double negatives. The US Patent Office specializes in testing using the double negative. The best work around is to nuke both and to assess what's left standing:
Clearly he was not mentally ill to the point of not understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others, =
Clearly he was mentally ill to the point of understanding what he was doing or how it would affect others,
Plus a little bit of humility, that true thing that tends to help people from judging too much, too harshly, and--above all!--*too* **starkly,** which latter thing, in particular, is a downfall to which more attention needs to be paid, on account of its connection to if not hubris, then at least inattention in a fateful way.
Well, chickelit, grammar was not to the point of that to which I was pointing out. In fact, that was not the point at all.
That said, you're good, and I accept the point you're making. To which I say:
Paddy, I suspect you and I have the same type of depression...a real nuisance that requires medication. Without it I am in a constant state of 'I hate myself'/'I wish was dead,' but I've never come close to suicide because I maintained the perspective of what it would do to my family. My depression is more like diabetes that needs treatment, in this case neurotransmitter boosting.
I think there is a black despair that goes beyond this, like rheumatoid arthritis goes beyond osteoarthritis, that distorts one's thinking so badly it wins out in the end.
rcommal said...
Plus a little bit of humility, that true thing that tends to help people from judging too much, too harshly, and--above all!--*too* **starkly,** which latter thing, in particular, is a downfall to which more attention needs to be paid, on account of its connection to if not hubris, then at least inattention in a fateful way.
Johannes Stark certainly had a downfall (from the highest pinnacle); hubris and fate were involved.
If he had killed someone else to ease his "pain", would these problems he suffered with be defended like this? Would you tell the family of those robbed of their loved ones what you are saying here? He may have the right to rob himself of life, but what he did to those around him is the same effect or even worse on the family and friends robbed in the process.
Terrible things are done due to "sickness". Rapists, pedophiles, wife beaters, kleptomaniacs, homophobes, racists, those addicted to dutch ovens all have a sickness too, but we expect them to control their impulse to selfishness. I expect a man with the resources of Williams to do at least that. Yes I judge. I'm fine with it. I'm not perfect, and people don't hesitate to remind me of it, and I'm still here to endure it rather than taking the easy out.
P.S. I don't think that phase of mine above was actually a double negative either. It does not factor out to equaling the opposite of the point intended. It is arithmetically sound, and if not, then it's poetic styling, which is above criticism.
Yes, I may have meant to use the word "phase". How would any of you know what's going on in my skull. I'm special, ya know.
I am not special, y'know: hard lesson learned but one that has kept me alive for a long time, just sayin'. I am grateful.
I don't think suicide is simply an "easy way out" because it goes against our instinct for self-preservation, which is the mightiest force there is. I was just reminded of this by the death of my cousin who had been diagnosed with stage-4 lung cancer at the age of 82. She fought it tooth and nail, undergoing chemo and radiation therapy. Not a picnic, but she wanted to keep on living. For most of us, that's the key thing--life. So to give it up willingly, I think, something even more powerful than that basic instinct has to be at work.
Some time back I had a procedure done which required Demerol. It was a mildly pleasant high, but nothing to get all radiant about. But after the drug wore off, I suffered the most profound depression ever. It was truly evil and black. I've always been aware that life sucks, but I suddenly realized just how bleak and futile in all its prospects life truly was. The next day I was back to my usual self, but that depression was memorable. I don't see how it's possible to make it through life in such a state........Maybe that's why drug addicts go to such desperate lengths to get their fix. They don't want to get high. They want to avoid the crashing downer.....,,Maybe that's what did Williams in. Not the drugs, but the crash afterward.......His suicide is scary. He had money, fame, the best professional help available, healthy children, a hot wife, and he couldn't find a way to balance the equation. Such a death makes us all feel vulnerable.
We've got to walk that lonesome highway all by ourselves.
Each of us has done some walking. I have mentioned what I have been through, some of which mirrors what Robin Williams went through. Yeah, heart surgery is tough, but after my time on the heart-lung bypass machine I found that I had lost the ability to be depressed.
Curious, but I'll take it.
Don't miss depression at all.
And after growing up in a town where 4 of my peers became a suicide "cluster", as the fashionable epidemiologists call such things these days, I had decided decades ago that was not the path for me.
So, I am still here, but over the decades I came to know just how bad the pain of depression can be. I would wish it on my worst enemies. Double.
So I understand how that kind of ideation can form, and I am sad he chose to act on it, as we never know what tomorrow holds.
End of life issues are different - as I have writen here before, I have a great admiration for the actor Richard Farnsworth, how he carried himself, how he lived, and while I might quibble with how he chose to die, I understand that choice.
He was 80, and while that's not that much different than 63, as someone who is older than 63 I like to think there are still some good years ahead and that I it's a shame that Robin Williams decided against living them.
Ultimately, it was his choice, I have a tiny bit of insight into what was going on, but one can never know what another person is going through.
It's not about wealth or family or a nice place in Tiburon. Those things were not enough to anchor him here. I can only imagine that he was in a great deal of pain and he sought to end it. Sometimes that's all a person can do.
So many insightful comments, but that's what brings me here.
If I'm quoting Robert Service correctly it was something like, "We could bear the famine worthily but lost our heads at the feast."
I don't know why he killed himself.
Not a clue.
He was just back in Hazelden for drug rehab, only a month ago. He looked awful, gaunt, rumpled, sad. No life in his eyes.
One assumes depression, but who knows?
I've been down that road. Despair is an evil son of a bitch.
In its grasp, one cannot logically answer Bagoh's question, yet you don't care. Nothing penetrates it. Not anger, love, kindness, logic, argument, food, getting high, etc.
The irrational brain triumphs, enslaving rational thought into performing the only apparently logical act, what turns out to be a selfish and permanent crime against your family, one that may be repeated in them, now that the impermissible is done.
Bagoh, I think you have some tough words; but you know, sometimes tough words help people get through the dark times.
...then it's poetic styling, which is above criticism.
That's my only excuse. Run with it.
Suicide is the most selfish act. It's the most hurtful and the most destructive to those left behind to deal with the pain each and every day. A pain that never goes away.
I'm with Bagho on this in his 11:31. I don't get depression. I am never depressed to the extent that is it crippling. Yah...I might get blue once in a while but am not really depressed. Just bummed out or sad for a while. There is just too much to enjoy in life even when life sucks momentarily. This too shall pass.
However I also agree with this
I suffered crushing depression for more than a year before getting help. I would have done anything to end the pain in my brain. I don't accept the half-baked notions about depression offered by those who have not experienced it.
I haven't experienced it, so I can't comprehend it. I also don't condemn those who have depression or blame them for the mood. Just like I've never had a compound fracture and can't imagine that pain either.
I have however lived with someone who was manic/depressive and as I said, his condition got worse and worse. It was Hell trying to cope with the moods. Hell trying to help lift or suppress the mood swings.
I feel very sorry for everyone involved. Robin Williams, his family. What a freaking waste of his life.
I might disagree a bit on the waste part - he did some good work, and, according to some, some good works as well. He made me laugh, and that has value to me. I think he brought a lot of laughter to a lot of other people, too. which is one reason I am willing to overlook his politics and note his passing with sadness.
In the end, we might not agree with how he chose to end his life, much of his life was not a waste. Wasted, sure, for many years he was, but like many bipolar people, he was probably self medicating.
It's a shame no one could reach him, but that's the depression part of that illness for you.
For me, in my bleakest phase, it was my lawyer, a deeply religious and ethical man, who spoke, what was no doubt a platitude, that gave me the courage to go on.
He also told me about a client of his who was in the same straits who took a different route. That was pretty scary.
So I am thankful that a good man spoke kind and useful words to me, provided a parable of what might happen were I to choose a different path, and that I was able to hear him.
@ Sixty
Yes. I didn't mean a waste as in he did nothing with his life. Williams created some lasting worthwhile and entertaining works of art. He will be remembered long after I'm taking my final dirt nap.
I meant a waste in how he ended his life and some of how he lived it in substance abuse. How he hurt some of the people around him. How he could have gotten the help needed, maybe he tried very hard, maybe he thought he could master it by himself, but didn't get it under control. These things happen daily. It is only because of the fame of Williams that THIS is a big deal to people who aren't really involved.
I can't comprehend what it going on in anyone else's head. It is just a shame.
My wife has suffered for years from clinical depression. She's been free from it for several years now but still is on medicine for OCD and anxiety.
She's a beautiful young woman with a loving husband, two amazing children, a stable job and a sound and luxurious (by a lot of standards) home.
Yet during her darkest days she's admitted to having thoughts about driving into a tree on the way to or from work.
It's inexplicable.
I applaud those here who have had the courage to speak about their depression. My beautiful daughter battles it w/ courage and honesty. She does not try and hide her illness. She does not allow it to make her a victim, either. Two years ago she had a brutal nervous breakdown. We went up to Minneapolis on an hours notice and ended up spending a week. It is a daily battle, just like diabetes is for me. But, a great shrink[there aren't many great ones] and meds has my dear daughter doing pretty well now. Depression is a very treatable disease. Like most diseases, it has different severities. It is not just being sad. It is being sad X 10k.
Williams suffered the double whammy of depression and addiction. They are ugly cousins. It is rare for a person to kill themselves w/o using booze and/or pills to give them the "courage." Our primal will to live requires that "assist." If investigators do not find evidence of alcohol or drugs in a toxicology report that is a big red flag. I had a retired homicide detective work for me back in the 90's. Suicide was his specialty. He taught me aa lot.
"I just don't get it."
Bags, in a true case of serious depression the body takes over the mind chemically. It's beyond an average person's ability to overcome that once it's in full bloom even with a strong conscious effort.
Be thankful that you haven't been there.
I'm not against guns, but I'm fairly against guns for me, because I know that there were times, especially in my late teens and early 20s, that my darkness got so bad I may have used a gun against myself.
But who knows? Why I'm still around has a lot to do with the reasoning I wrote before. As dark as it was, as impossible as everything was, I realized that other people were in my life and how it would affect them (even if I couldn't see why it should). I made small and big choices to find a way forward, and one way was to see life as more courageous than death. Instead of killing myself, I would let go all the things I thought I had to do or be. I would die to my old life. It was actually a new beginning of freedom, to kill myself but keep on living. Live, at first, in light of the fact there were others. Live as a conscious deliberate belief in hope, rather than something I felt. I had to consciously choose life despite all the depression and frustrations.
Worked out. As it would have for Robin Williams.
Just heard the press conference about it. Slit wrists and hanging by a belt and a door? That's rage against the self.
Many heartfelt expressions and revelations in the comments here. Thank you for sharing with us.
As Sixty says we all walk alone in the end and you don't really know until you walk a mile in someones
shoes.
I don't think it is for us to judge someone who kills themselves. I can not comprehend why someone would do something like this. In that I am with bags. But as many of you have said depression is an ugly and terrible thing. We can all understand someone who commits suicide because they are in great physical pain. Maybe mental pain works the same way.
Artists are often troubled and tortured. I know that is trite and a cliché but it is still true. Robin Williams is just one in a long line who self destructed.
Many, many years ago he was in the hotel room with John Belushi right before he died. He managed to survive for decades after that. They were in equivalent positions in their careers and lives at that time. There is something in that. I just don't know what.
I enjoyed his last sitcom "The Crazy Ones" even though it wasn't all that great. But what they did was show bloopers for the last five minutes of every show where he would do crazy stuff and the cast would all crack up or try to riff off what he did. They seemed to be having so much fun and seemed to like each other so much that you just had to smile and it made you enjoy the episodes even more. He seemed to enjoy mentoring the younger actors and was warm and personable and fun.
Losing that must have been a blow. I bet if the show was still in production he would have been fine.
What a waste.
What if our culture just let him get high and drink, and lived with it? Would he ever have done this?
Maybe some people do better with a little escape. Maybe we expect too much conformity and perfection from each other. Humans have been self medicating forever, and maybe some of us have just evolved to needing it. Churchill and many others from previous generations did OK before all this "Rehabilitation" stuff became expected. Some day it will be seen in the same light we see lobotomies today.
Bagoh, Your lack of knowledge or insight is stunning.
Didn't the death of John Belushi set Willliams on the path to rehab? That was the impetus, not society's disapproval.
"Maybe some people do better with a little escape."
The trouble is we remember those who somehow make it, like Keith Richards or Winston Churchill. But those escapes take so, so many people at all stages of life. The ones who make it make is seem romantic.
Humanity doesn't like looking into the gutter of failure, so we ignore the vast amount of people whose lives are ruined or never got a start because in escaping they never were present.
I have friends who became alcoholics, and it's enormously sad how much they have lost simply because they wanted to escape, and ended up escaping every bit of happiness they had or could have.
I get the cynicism here about depression. It's overused as an excuse. It's morphed into a catch-all excuse for bad behavior because it converts the fatigue and frustration which come with the struggles of daily life into a scientifically approved condition. One possibly requiring medication. A lot of psychological diagnoses have morphed in this way. Look what happened to post-traumatic stress disorder. It was developed for war veterans, people who had been actually shot at and bombed over long periods of time. I hear about PTSD all the time defending cases in which from people have been in (relatively minor) car accidents. Their doctors tell them they've got PTSD and presto, those bills are claimed as damages.
But a little perspective, please: When someone puts a rope around his neck and hangs himself, he really is depressed. Maybe remember him kindly for his good work and sweet character? And for persevering for as long as he did? Dang!
I haven't gotten through the entire thread and don't know how I'll ever process a light this bright in our lives (that we took for granted) turning himself off, but am inclined to agree with BagO (although I know I'm not supposed to). Paddy's response gives me hope. Yes, our brains are still organs that aren't always completely in everyone's control to the same extent but I can't imagine why he wouldn't spend some time with the anguished and helpless and see what that does. Depression is biological but suicide IIRC is social (i.e. it varies by the society). I think in a society where people don't get a sense of selfishness and being alone they wouldn't do it. I think the world must be too big a place for some people. But then a mind as unusual as his must have been unusual in other ways also.
I heard some commenter say that one hit of coke changes the brain in a way that can account for never crawling back completely as we'd hoped and assumed he would.
HOnestly, most of us are just talking out our asses or being personal about it and I guess who knows why we wouldn't. My personal reaction is I'm mad as hell at the sumbitch and don't understand why if nothing else they can't understand their obligation to others. But then, it's not like he didn't do so much for us already. I guess at 63 he figured he'd done as much and took care of his kids and obligations and guessed it was never going to get better. And yet, how could all that time not have taught him to deal with that…
Whatever he needed, apparently we couldn't give it to him. Which makes me think he's an asshole even I know that, as with a lover you'll never figure out no matter how many of your own buttons they can press, you can only get so angry.
But still, I don't have to like how he did this. Not even a note? At least blame it on the world or something external, man. Be angry. Don't just be everybody's everything all the time, too nice to find something other than yourself to hate and feel helpless about. FUck.
Reading through more, I think evolutionarily life is a struggle. I guess we've always felt it's supposed to be one and the ones for whom it isn't in some way can't relate to the regular small joys of overcoming them. The people who should be happiest are the ones we least expect to end up in this way. Such an illness as one beyond the reach of any attempt to find meaning in the world, or at least ease others' suffering, I guess I can't understand.
But I'm not him. What a horror live with to be in a mind beyond even the satisfaction of those sorts of needs. Some things in life are truly a curse.
Couldn't he have tried ECT? I heard that's supposed to be a panacea.
Running out of things to appreciate is the common sickness of our day. We're all susceptible to it, and it's contagious. Boy, is it contagious. How many people do you know who truly go around finding things to learn and do, and be rationally inspired by, and don't mind sharing that with as many people who care to indulge and be touched by it?
And what makes it even more ironic is that there's no place in the world where I find more of that than in Northern CA, where he lived.
I wonder if he was affected by all the bullshit going on around the world lately. I know I have been.
Is it naive for me to wonder if this is all a result of there not being enough love in the world?
I know that love isn't everything. People need understanding, too.
I naively wonder if enough of those things can't solve every problem. Or at least, every problem of this sort.
Your words are all wiser than mine.
I want to understand why he did it, and know that there are situations like this in some people, for whom, nothing will break it.
All I know is the work I like the most was Good Will Hunting. I've not appreciated the power of his role as much as everyone else did, but I remembered the way everyone else got the words Ben Affleck told Will at the end:
Fuck you, you don't owe it to yourself man, you owe it to me.
I can't understand how I'll ever be able to see that movie again in the same light.
Rhythm and Balls wrote:
Is it naive for me to wonder if this is all a result of there not being enough love in the world?
It's not naive but instead profoundly true.
I am shattered by the knowledge that some of the truly great people I've read from over the years on this thread have either thought of doing the same thing or know the circumstance.
Nd's comments are good. Maybe more openness about it would help. I think there is stigma against moping. He probably felt obliged to entertain. Perhaps he should have just stared at everyone around him with an empty glare, and dared the world to give something back to him in his moment. Is there no one who could have done that?
Take it out on the world. Hell, take it out on anyone. Blame someone or something! Whatever it takes to confront it instead of letting it envelop you.
Channel it. Focus it. I have to believe our other destructive emotions must have some use… Why not for the sake of destroying this?
I think if you're that depressed you might just be too good a person to use the body's/mind's destructive capacity even for the sake of destroying what's destroying you.
Shrinks who change your life in the way some people really need them to are indeed very rare. Talent comes in all forms. As does the way people relate to each other.
"Bagoh, Your lack of knowledge or insight is stunning."
Perhaps I'm dense, but it's not a lack of knowledge or insight. Nearly my entire life I've been surrounded by alcoholics, drug addicts, and people racked with depression. My life of family, friends and lovers has been full of them. Some killed themselves. I have oodles of insight, knowledge and experience first hand, and frankly I'm tired of the excuses. It is the problem like most victimology, and I think in many cases the constant push from others to get sober is cruel and counter productive. I'm just tired of the lifelong struggle dealing with this stuff. It's always the same over and over. I'm exhausted by the effort, and disgusted with the results.
The bullshit of the world can get to anyone.
Even with the way people pretend to care, it's always usually from such an opportunistic perspective.
Who ever takes the time to really be with someone who might need them… for days, weeks even… to the point of actually putting their own life on hold?
Maybe the rest of us breathe life into delusions of what will always be there for us… even if it's just in the form of a search. The perfect love. The perfect bit of knowledge and enlightenment.
There's this Hebrew song I like that's very pretty. The singer describes his lover, and the narrator changes to the woman singing it just as the verses change into the chorus.
The entire set of lyrics I find beautiful. But especially the last one, which I find apt:
One moment before the sunset
I embrace you
And my heart, like a ball of fire,
dives and falls with you
Then comes the darkness
The magic disappears
Leaving only the depth of your eyes
and the sadness of the world…
R&B wrote: I heard some commenter say that one hit of coke changes the brain in a way that can account for never crawling back completely as we'd hoped and assumed he would.
I tried it once in the 80's and it didn't do shit. Maybe it was a quality issue? Or maybe it did change me but I never felt a benefit nor a buzz.
Paddy's 2:24 is incredible.
Lol. A guy I knew once living in the decrepit part of the kooky city would do hits of that from his key while sitting on our porch and dismiss it by likening it to "10 cups of coffee".
Maybe that's why I don't drink coffee.
Weed never did anything for me until I suffered a debilitating, to the point of contemplating an end, physical ailment. For two years I somehow found a way to barely live.
Then a stoner helped me out.
Suffice it to say, my perspective on that sort of regulation changed overnight.
As did the enjoyment I was able to get out it. ;-)
But I'm all better now. Sometimes euphoria has a legitimate purpose, though.
We can all understand someone who commits suicide because they are in great physical pain. Maybe mental pain works the same way.
Actually, medical science is starting to show us that they do.
I just read a good piece in the Telegraph that gets at what Amartel said above about depression being "overused as an excuse," which is maybe what's bothering some of you here.
Here's what Amartel said: I get the cynicism here about depression. It's overused as an excuse. It's morphed into a catch-all excuse for bad behavior because it converts the fatigue and frustration which come with the struggles of daily life into a scientifically approved condition. One possibly requiring medication. A lot of psychological diagnoses have morphed in this way. Look what happened to post-traumatic stress disorder.
And here's the Telegraph:
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
The majority of those claiming to be depressed are suffering perhaps from temporary low mood. It’ll pass. Talking therapies, that awful 2014 buzzword "mindfulness", perhaps a mild 10mg dose of Citalopram, a little bit of time and patience, will sort it.
When we misuse words like "depressed" something insidious and destructive happens. They become part of our vernacular, their meaning is diluted, it becomes much harder to give weight and necessary attention to those who really are suffering from depression. Real depression is something so serious, so life-threatening, so heavy, that it is more than disingenuous to bandy the word around lightly – it is dangerous.
and
Depression is like being forced to wear a cloak made of lead. You don’t get to choose when to put it on and take it off. It is a second skin which gradually seeps into your own, real skin and poisons it until you are a walking, toxic, corrosive bundle of infectious awfulness. The thought of suicide is the only real respite and the only chink of light at the end of the tunnel. You can "pull yourself together" only inasmuch as you can make yourself three feet taller. Whether you’re alone in a squalid bedsit with tinfoil on the windows or in a 17-bedroom mansion with a loving family and the career of your dreams makes no difference.
Exactly. Thank you. The "lead cloak" description is spot on.
The word has been abused and misused dishonestly for opportunistic reasons, from injecting drama to injecting substances. Semantic overreach.
It's just an awful death because it makes you believe that all that joy you felt, that you'd commune with him on, wasn't real. If it was just a show and underneath it he was a wreck, why couldn't he find a way to express it - or at least warn others? Why the need for a facade all the time? Just say: I'm depressed. Come out and say it. He did with the substances.
I'm looking at my favorite stills and scenes and other shots where I see him and just think, "Phony." If you faked it that well, what the fuck was the point of me getting any enjoyment out of it either.
And I'm rearranging the memories and meanings he helped me develop over my life with the sense of loss of a kid whose parents are divorcing and a dad who, it's now revealed, cheated for God only knows how long.
Being the king simple, I'll ask:
Why didn't he just go to sleep? Tomorrow is another day. He did it for 63 years. One night at a time. Go for a jog, have a drink, get in the bed, and make it to one more day. So much at stake, and it was so easy to hold on to it. Just do nothing, or any of a million other things tonight, but not that one thing. Just don't do that. It's the only way you can fail at this point.
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
Oh, good Lord. BULLshit. Yet another example of one-size-fits-all crap, and in this case, a dangerous and stupid notion which at its core reveals a fatal shallowness of thinking.
Consider, in detail, for yourselves:
If you’re so depressed you want to die then you should be in hospital, medicated to the point that breathing is pretty much the only thing you can consciously do, under 24 hour supervision and incapable of rational thought.
Honestly, if that's the sort of "should be" existence to which some would like to exile the "that depressed," then why--for the love of God, the respect for intelligence, and the commitment to logic--would any seriously depressed person ***NOT*** opt for suicide as an alternative (which alternative at least preserves self-determination, a not unreasonable factor in values)?
---
Man, oh day. What the hell of a case are you guys trying to make, anyway?
R&B, I appreciate your musings here.
The threads that hit home, that change the usual boundaries, were the ones I most appreciated at Althouse and why I still very appreciate hereabouts.
So what would he tell the homeless man?
"I'm sorry I couldn't figure out why you and not me" (and vice versa)? Or, not. Who knows? Likely no one, not even those sincerely trying to understand. Nor do know the most narrative power-hungry among us, and that is so no matter how attractive they make ruthlessness seem.
"Depression is like being forced to wear a cloak made of lead."
I get this. I've been here. For a number of years.
But it's not an issue of turning it on or off. People deal with all sorts of disabilities that are overwhelming.
The issue is to embrace it or to push against it. That's the difference between alcoholics who succumb to the worst of it and alcoholics who can speak of sobriety for years and a rebuilt life.
Someone with real depression shouldn't be locked away. They should be shown there is light. So they know which way there is to walk with the cloak of lead around them.
Depression is very treatable. It's not something that should condemn people to being locked away, either by themselves or by sympathetic sounding article writers. One may not feel any hope in life, but one can choose to hope for that hope, finding treatment.
Williams had access to everything.
Depression can be fought. Not fixed in one swoop or turned off. But it can be fought.
Williams fought and pressed forward at one point. He didn't this time. He lost the fight.
Which is very sad for his family. I don't think it takes away from what he did before, as the underlying fight added texture to his roles, especially his dramatic roles. Too bad he ultimately chose the way of Neil Perry.
I have found this thread to one of the most illuminating ever at Lem's. One of the reasons I read and post occasionally here. I have particularly moved by Bagoh20's remarks, because I understand them...fact is his concepts are what have gotten me through many through spots. I have to say the same for Rhythm & Balls, somehow I get the feeling he has been where I have been, maybe not exactly, but we felt the same at times. That said, everyone's comments here have been honest and that is what matters to me...they are contributions to awareness, not negative dismissals.
You know what? Given a lot of what you're saying, I am inspired to posit a cruel counter-view as well:
Maybe those people left behind aren't as worthy as you think for pity and compassion. Perhaps they abandoned, or at least didn't bother to help as much they could have, the person who finally, at the last, gave up.
Ever think of, much less consider, that counter-factual?
Now, I am absolutely not putting forth that as my personal opinion or analysis, so don't you all, or any one of you, dare try to put forth otherwise.
What *****I am***** doing is to challenge you to consider things as if it's possible to think outside of a number of boxes--and that, while still retaining the ability to view individuals with, at least, great affection if not/not to mention with love?
(I have always, all of my life, distrusted continual loops; and the older I get?--the more I dislike them, as well.)
The other thing is: Sweet jumpin' whatever.
How easy is it to shoot arrows at the dead, anyway (answer: very). I guess the point is to discourage the still-living (still living) not to become among the dead at whom arrows will be shot. Well, now. That there is one helluva an incentive to not self-murder (so to speak).
W.T.F.
They should be shown there is light.
By golly.
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