It does little good to suggest someone reverse races and think about a situation. We see it does no good at all suggesting someone consider reversing parties in regarding any given situation, switch the chessboard around, offense/defense when they are unaccustomed to walking a mile in another man's moccasins, oops that is racist and unhygienic besides, are you kidding me, what with funguses you can get these days?
It's already happening, just in a different way. Would I rather get blasted by a fire hose or be the object of the knockout game? Speaking of reversing the situation, seems I read where one white idiot played the knockout game and promptly caught the attention of our esteemed, non-racist attorney general.
"I think that the guilt complex of the American white man is so profound, until when you begin to analyze the real condition of the Black man in America, instead of the American white man eliminating the causes that create that condition, he tries to cover it up by accusing his accusers of teaching hate, but actually they're just exposing him for being responsible for what exists."
chickenlittle said... Crack I would be curious to hear your views on ST's claim to be a professional musician.
I would rather you stayed on topic...
I think this is on topic. ST has claimed repeatedly to make a living as a professional musician. In the exceeding unlikely event that this claim is true he is doing it by playing music conceived and created primarily by black musicians. I think it would be of great general interest to hear Crack's views on ST's claim to be a professional musician and to hear an overall critique of ST's 'musical' performances.
I mean, you can't make a man be or feel responsible for slavery based on the color of his skin. It's as logically fallacious as saying that all blacks are slaves.
I agree, the black fire hose hasn't happened. But racism is rampant at Crack's place. Photos of lynchings, apportioning blame to anyone who is white (and not specifying there is a difference among white), is just wrong, freeman.
Yes, Crack is just randomly cruising around the web looking for pic and videos, posting them, and then demanding that you and I confess and send him our stuff.
ST, you live in Woodstock, do yoga daily, ride a pushbike and hate lefties with a psychotic passion. Did it ever occur to you that you are the laughing stock of your town?
It probably doesn't occur to fucking morons, but a wide variety of people live in Woodstock. Including people who aren't lefties. My next door neighbor, out here in the woods, is a retired petrochemical engineer.
You're a moron, so it's tough explaining these things to you.
I could use one syllable words and go real slow.
Is there any way I can help you, moron? I have pity for the stupid and clueless, but I don't always know what's the best way to communicate with them.
What you seem to be saying, Crack is that minority groups by definition cannot be racist. That does nothing to solve any problem, but I suppose it goes a long ways in easing your own conscience.
You don't survive as a musician, or in any kind of public profession, unless you learn to deal with the reality that some people like what you do, and some don't.
I know. Which is why I didn't get the point of this post.
I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror.
Other people probably aren't getting it because they scroll past the stuff you're mirroring.
I'll summarize Crack's bitter racist remarks about Filipinos.
Filipino women have no resources and will fuck anybody who offers them money or a visa.
You can't get any more bitterly, viciously racist than that.
The racist is Crack. Once of the worst I've ever encountered. He's selling himself to you as the Savior who will absolve you from your guilt if only you'll send him your money. He is the representative of all that is black.
The reason Crack thinks everybody is a racist is because he is so bitterly racist.
Freeman Hunt said... I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror.
freeman hut said: I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror
I can read good into that and thank you.
Other people probably aren't getting it because they scroll past the stuff you're mirroring.
I admit that my intended audience for this one was rather circumscribed.
Shouting Thomas said... It was once voted "the most contentious little town in America."
Arguing over whether or not it is more righteous to be vegan or vegetarian does not count as political pluralism. You, no doubt, are a member of the vegan liberation front of upper Woodstock - schismatic division.
Give me a fucking break, you can barely play. You are not and never have been a professional musician. You are a dilettante, funded either by a trust fund or a divorce settlement and either way she made you pay.
Shouting Thomas said... You're seething with jealousy. I deal with that all the time, too.
I'm sure you do. It must be an onerous burden and I want to thank you on behalf of all of your fellow citizens for your willingness to carry this cross through life.
In Crack's defense, some of the worst racial hostility I've experienced was white-on-white racism: the time I heard "we'd hire you but we need to hire a woman or a minority." That wasn't exactly a fire hose, but it had financial repercussions for sure. Perhaps reparations would be in order? Maybe an artistic portrayal of a white hosing down another white?
As I said, Crack cracked up over the prevalence of black violence.
He's taken that reality as an accusation against himself, and he's busy constructing a counter attack that proves that the prevalence of black violence is an illusion or justified retaliation.
It's got to be tough to be a black man who isn't violent. People are afraid of you. Half the black men in this country go to jail at some point in your life. You can't banish this from people's minds. You can make them shut up, but they still know the score.
Oh and one more thing. He was charged on January 4th, 2014 so it is not like it was some recent thing like the Civil War or something like that there if you catch my drift.
Freeman: "I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror."
Maybe a better term would be Rorschach test? At any rate, it appears to me he's making it up as he goes along.
Crack: "If you see racism in what I'm doing, look at what you're doing, and ask why."
Please re-word that so I understand what you are saying.
Look at ST's ravings. What would my blog look like if it mirrored his mindset - in black?
Try his "logic" on for size:
Blacks, after half a century, feel such guilt about black violence we're going nuts - meanwhile, we can all see ST's mental problem (cognitive dissonance) completely ignores the FOUR CENTURIES of extreme white violence, anger, and racism that's actually on display in his unhinged behavior.
Those are my tools now. I use posts from this blog also - what you choose to cover (or, more importantly, don't) how you frame things (rarely from the black side, always with sympathy for whites - which, historically, means you, as whites, have changed not-at-all) and even what topics are important to you:
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
Martin Luther King should've dedicated his life to that.
I get attacked for trying to do the opposite - think about that on MLK Day.
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
Yes.
Chip's bit is useful to people. I already knew how to do it, but lots of people don't.
You're megalomania is useless, and damaging to yourself.
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
Where did you get the 25 million number, Crack? I understand that math is not something you are good at, but please explain how you came up with that number.
Slavery ended in this country in 1865. Four hundred years before that would be 1465. So, by Crack's calculation, slavery started here before Columbus discovered the place.
Google showed me this: "From page 1, section 2 predicts by David Stannard in American Holocaust (1992), estimates that some 30-60 million Africans died being enslaved. 50% mortality during capture and stored, a 10% mortality among the survivors while crossing the ocean and another 50% mortality rate 1st year. Overall, 35-80 % mortality rate in transit."
But on the PBS page: "The most comprehensive analysis of shipping records over the course of the slave trade is the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, edited by professors David Eltis and David Richardson. (While the editors are careful to say that all of their figures are estimates, I believe that they are the best estimates that we have, the proverbial “gold standard” in the field of the study of the slave trade.) Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.
And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That’s right: a tiny percentage."
The Root.com adds this to the PBS account: "In fact, the overwhelming percentage of the African slaves were shipped directly to the Caribbean and South America; Brazil received 4.86 million Africans alone! Some scholars estimate that another 60,000 to 70,000 Africans ended up in the United States after touching down in the Caribbean first, so that would bring the total to approximately 450,000 Africans who arrived in the United States over the course of the slave trade.
Incredibly, most of the 42 million members of the African-American community descend from this tiny group of less than half a million Africans. And I, for one, find this amazing."
I've noticed a huge uptick, particularly w/ young black males, being anti-Semitic. They fail to understand basic history being it was Jews riding the Freedom buses in Dixie. As Chris Rock says, "If you want to hide your money from black burglars in the hood, just put it in a book. Ain't no young, black man goin' to open a book!"
I do not understand why people here get so bent out of shape regarding Crack's claim that American remains quite racist. You simply need to read the comments on his site to see the truth of this.
This being said, it is my strong impression that the US is one of the least racist countries on earth. Given how the human mind works this is a low bar to cross but it is something that we can have some modest pride in and, given our history, some hope for the future. Nonetheless Crack's perspective remains legitimate, being one of the best of a very bad bunch is still a long way from perfection.
I cannot see how it hurts to acknowledge the truth of at least some of what he says. I personally do not feel threatened by the knowledge that I fall well short of perfection. "There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - LC.
1. I have no "white guilt" over slavery in the United States. My ancestors have had no connection whatsoever with participating in slavery: most of them being Welsh and Irish descent and immigrating AFTER the Civil War. Others who were here before, actively participated in trying to END slavery (you're welcome Crack). They were Quakers and abolitionist in the North.
2. Guilt trips don't work on me even "IF" I were guilty of something. I don't roll that way.
3. I have been the victim of reverse racism when in SF having my car and myself attacked merely because I was a white chick in a wrong neighborhood. Blacks are among the worst and most unapologetic racists that I have ever come across, with the exception of the Chinese.....but they don't attack you personally. Their racism is much more subtle and insidious.
4. Crack should get some perspective and stop blaming everyone for his own problems. Calling everyone racists because HIS life is sucking right now. Blacks in general should do what other put upon ethnic and religious groups have done. Work towards BETTERING your own people and help each other improve. If you want to stop being slaves, liberate yourself from your own self imposed chains of clinging to the past and refusing to play the whining caving victim game that the politicians love to use you for.
Better your own society. Lift each other UP. You could start with the racist animals who are perpetrating the 'knock out game' on elderly people just because they are white. If this behavior continues and no one in your community does anything about it....I guarantee you it will not turn out well as some true racists on the white side are going to get real tired of this shit. Trust me on this.
Shouting Thomas said... Our problem here is that paying attention to Crack, and giving serious credence to his megalomania only causes him to double down
I have 35 years of experience in Woodstock trying to get megalomanic world savers to talk about something other than their prized theory about what's wrong with the world and how to fix it.
Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
Nothing you say can derail the world savers from their appointed mission. Everything you say can and will be repurposed to fit within their single mania.
My advice. Give up. I gave up in Woodstock, and it improved my life. A lot.
ARM: "I do not understand why people here get so bent out of shape regarding Crack's claim that American remains quite racist."
Because it's a tired old trump card meant to shut up whomever is speaking.
Everyone is tribal. No shit. Who gives a damn? What's your next step? Nothing. The 'racism' observation leads nowhere except to further Balkanize people against each other.
Under Obama, race relations have gotten worse precisely because he and Althouse and others repeatedly play the race card.
Pogo is Dead said... Because it's a tired old trump card meant to shut up whomever is speaking.
Everyone is different but I don't find Crack's comments generally fall into this category. He would like a discussion, or he wouldn't keep coming back.
I was referring to your claim of racism, not Crack's, although it could be equally laid at his doorstep.
There is no point to further discussion of racism. It leads nowhere, nothing constructive comes of it.
It is a rumination on hate, and only destroys the individual. It is especially destructive when the racism card is played against people who are not fucking racist.
I tell you all this racism talk has sorely hardened my heart.
A discussion is where two or more people sit down and civilly talk about an issue. Exchange ideas and perhaps change minds and possibly come to a consensus.
None of these are what Crack [and some others] are participating in. Crack says we are all racists. Period. No discussion. No budging on that idea. Done. There is zero point in having a 'discussion' with someone in that mindset. Talk to the hand.
Pogo is Dead said... There is no point to further discussion of racism. It leads nowhere, nothing constructive comes of it.
I am not sure I agree with this. I have found writers as diverse as Steve Sailer, John Derbyshire, Ta-Nehisi Coates and Crack have all had interesting things to say on the topic on occasion. It is part of the human condition.
"...have all had interesting things to say on the topic on occasion. It is part of the human condition."
I dunno. All that comes out are insults, recriminations and reactions, demand for reparation and rejections of said demands.
Like Crack's post above to me. I said my heart was being hardened, and he accused me of wanting to kill.
It's time to STFU about racism already, and move on. You can't fix the past 400 years. There is no slavery in the US, no Jim Crow, no nothing. But not a thing, supposedly, has gotten any better.
Amazingly, I can access the web at the gym while riding the stationary bike. Ain't life amazing? My gym is 10 bucks a month. I've been pretty successful, so I could afford more, but for what purpose?
I don't care for arugula. I prefer romaine.
Since you are so fascinated by my bio, I'll accommodate you a little.
I was born in 1950 in a shotgun shack in the middle of the cornfields in Illinois. Son of non-union factory workers.
My dad's nickname was "Spic." He was one of 11 siblings. His mother died when he was very young. He was called "Spic" because, alone among his siblings, he walked down to the creek on winter mornings to wash himself before he went to school. Thus, his nickname was originally "Spic 'N Span," and later shortened to just "Spic."
I'm the first member of my extended family to earn any kind of college degree.
As I said, your stupidity is downright hilarious, made all the more hilarious by the gravitas with which it is delivered.
I've got a roll of hundred dollar bills in my pocket from my weekend gigs. I could send you a pic, I guess.
I appreciate your obsession with my life and work. There is no such thing as bad PR!
Your ancestors came here and, like the Nazis taking Jewish apartments, took advantage of slavery's profits like everyone else.
Right. Tell that to my Welsh Great Grandfather who went to work in the coal mines in Rock Springs Wyoming in 1889. Wow....did he get rich on the backs of you slaves. Living the life of Riley. I bet he had a stash of secret slaves stashed in the basement of his house.....Bwahahahahah......Oh wait. He didn't OWN a house. It was owned by the mining company.
Maybe it was my other Irish Great Grandparents who came over during the potato famine and worked as bricklayers in Chicago and other cities in the North East. Man...did they ever profit and get rich from slavery. (not)
What a shock to arrive at the University of Illinois in 1966 to discover, according to my humanities profs, that I was the beneficiary of white privilege!
An this pertains to my ancestors who didn't arrive in this country until the mid 1880's and who took up a life of HARD labor, barely surviving..... how?
Try to spin a hard life as a coal miner in Rock Springs, Wyo as a life of luxury living off of the backs of 'former' slaves. Go ahead.
I'm not sure if the numbers cited here include the 620,000 military deaths associated with The Civil War, or the war in which we decided to kill each other to change the national policy on slavery.
EMD said... I'm not sure if the numbers cited here include the 620,000 military deaths associated with The Civil War, or the war in which we decided to kill each other to change the national policy on slavery.
Diverting the issue of blacks to the Civil War is a cop out. We've got a billion Civil War movies and hardly any of them feature slaves. Stay on point.
It's wild to me to see the same scenarios recreated all over again:
After the Civil War, where the benevolence yore alluding to happened, the country (North and South) went back to being ruthlessly vicious to blacks in about 10-to-12 years.
Crack wrote: So now I mirror you - and you don't like it.
Based on the post you put up in response to my post, you didn't like the reflection of the mirror I put up. That was a reflection of a mirror of a mirror of a mirror.
Have you seen an uptick in donations over the last 12 hrs? If not, then there is no further way for me to help your cause.
Does anyone actually find it interesting to watch personality disorders argue with each other? I certainly don't, one reason I'm not here much anymore.
Frankly, the spectacle of this thread defeats the purpose of it. I've lived in places in Asia where racism existed between persons of the same color and genealogical background. I have friends living in similar places now, such as central Africa.
The "racism" in such places is different from that expressed on all sides here in the US of A. Time we owned up to that simple fact.
No, when I hear anyone in this country spout the term "racist" or "racism" I know they are being specific...against Negroes, ,or Waspy "whites", then Jews, or East Asians, or miscellaneous sundry ethnic white folks. Period. We, and our government of morons, even go to extremes to define just what "kind of white folks" are included. Any scientific analysis would equate Obama as at least half as white as I am or equally as white my kid is...but no, Obama is black and my kid is white. Right?
Hey, it is just like the thread about how we lie to ourselves isn't it? I called that a fallacy, however, Synova made some good points regarding my ideas...and after this thread, flip-flop, I think it is true, we lie to ourselves constantly. Almost No one on this thread has been honest(a few have been, and mocked)...tragedy is that they may not even know it.
You want to know what honor between humans is, regardless of race or ethnicity? Read Marcus Luttrell's book or see the damn movie. To save innocent Pashtun life, of a different race and culture, four guys sacrificed themselves with only one surviving because of the efforts of another Pashtun who applied another, however similar, code of honor.
Main question: does anyone think those four Seals didn't know what would happen when they let the shepherds go?
If you do, you just don't understand. I saw men do similar things in my war and never ceased to be awed by them and their integrity and courage. A periodic commenter here has a favorite song: "Blood on the Risers" and that code is what it is all about. Even here. At home.
I will stop to help any man or woman in the dark anywhere here, frequently along Warren Avenue near 24th street where the roadway curves and accidents happen. The locale is sort of famous if you know who Malice Green was...and I do, he was killed by a friend of mine, in the line of duty, but who also served his time, in prison, and recently died too. So far, though I am always armed, I have never had instance to draw a weapon, just opportunities to help folks now and then, black or white, yellow or brown. People. Like me.
I saw men with "airborne" tabs on their shoulders, plus other badges, do things to save civilian nationals that astounded me. The very least I can do as a civilian now these 40 years later is to be at least as considerate.
No I don't care what color you are. If you care, about either of us, that's your problem.
And that is one reason you need to be here more often. A thread cannot be subverted if others show up...including me who has sat on the sideline this time until the end, but won't in the future.
I think Lem, and his crew of posters, tries hard to make this place worthwhile. I'll try to be a positive addition to that from now on.
One last thing. On this day, celebrating MLK's birthday (actually it was 15 April...but government likes to re-order things) I prefer to remember 04 April 1968, the day Martin Luther King died. Shot by a coward, from ambush. By late evening we expected a riot, it was Detroit after all...and NO riot occurred.
One of the few days in those days I was proud of my town...I'd given my revolver to a young woman who'd been ordered to stay overnight in the bar where she worked to "protect" it, on the WSU campus.
We shared a great cup of coffee the next morning when I went to retrieve the revolver on my way to work....I didn't have class until 6:20 that night, thereafter I got beers for free for me and my friends. :) All of us were grateful that Detroit, of all places, did not blow up. None of us were happy about the sick fuckers in Memphis....but except for a few of us, we were just as white.
Funny how that made less difference then than it does today.
ARM ... where you are wrong is that you imply that I am less "idealistic" than when I was younger. The thing is I notice the difference and remark negatively.
If anything I am more idealistic now, as hard experience has taught me what works and what does not. As I've said before, I believe in integrity and honor, and never more so than now.
I don't think that I am superior to "black people" or "African americans" or whatever the preferred nomenclature is these days, but I feel very confident that I am superior to Crack MC.
Probably just my white privilege showing.
I do enjoy a good off topic pissing contest between ST and ARM, reminds me of the good old days.
You take a black and white photo from a 1963 LIFE magazine and flip it from positive to negative to point out that what? - black Americans could conceivably gain a racial demographic majority, segregate and oppress white Americans, and then, when white Americans finally stand up and demand civil rights equal to their black majority oppressors, the black oppressors turn fire hoses and attack dogs on the peaceful white minority demonstrators?
What do you think, chickenlittle?
I'd say it's about as likely as ricpic knockout punching Trooper York.
@Meade: I don't get the demographic angle at all. Look at South Africa for example -- then and now. Do you and Crack (and Ann for that matter) seriously think black on white racism should get a pass? Yes or no please.
I look at Crack's blog and see blatant black on white racism supported by blatant white on black photos. And I look at your interaction over there and I see you enabling him.
Does anyone have a theory as to what inspires so much rage?
Who or what inspired all or that anger?
Could one possibility be that a certain person was portrayed by the media as 100% innocent and child-like, with facts twisted for maximum narrative? Could it be a president spoke of the incident and personalized it as though it was a crime against his own family? Now retribution against other innocent persons must take place. It must. Right? Righteous rage.
btw - I was thinking about your knowledge of extracting scents or perfume making. Remind me, if you don't mind, of your expertise? I'm very fascinated with that.
Why won't Barbara Walters(D), the silly ladies on The View(D), the eternally ridiculous Matt lauer(D), David Gregory(D) or Brian Williams(D) invite a "knock out game" player over for an interview? hmmmm. I think the “why” answer would be telling.
Unless it's narrative seeking and democrat promotion, our hack media do not care, and they are not interested in the truth.
MLK would not approve of the knock out game. Obama? What say you? Obama injected himself to gain the division that helped spur the anger he needed to promote himself and his party. Now - where is he? The Knock out game is a big f*cking deal.
chickenlittle said... @Meade: I don't get the demographic angle at all. Look at South Africa for example -- then and now. Do you and Crack (and Ann for that matter) seriously think black on white racism should get a pass? Yes or no please.
How do you define black on white racism?
If you're trying to posit blacks have no reason to be angry, you're tripping. That's like saying you don't understand a Jew who doesn't want to go to Germany.
And why - after 400 years of abuse - is your concern for the abusers?
Where, on MLK Day, is your cry for justice for blacks?
Look. People are in poverty all over the world and in the US. Take a gander at Appalachia. White poor people. Trying to blame slavery or events that happened 150 years ago for the current poor socio economic conditions of black people is a crutch and a poor excuse. Chinese who were basically imported as slave laborers in the West to work on the railroads and in the mines were not treated any better. YET....you don't see the Chinese community as a whole wallowing in self pity.
What can get people out of poverty? Lots of things. Work! Self help among the community from churches, family and others who have already made the leg up. Education!!!!!!! Attitude, is everything to an employer. The list of cultural attributes to get people out of the poverty trap is much too long to go into here. Most of those items or improvements to get ahead have nothing to do with your skin color. The poor whites in the hills of East Virginia are just as bad in their culture and lifestyles.
Is there discrimination? NO one is denying that there was in the past....a lot. However, this isn't the past and people who are truly racist are fewer and far between. The laws have been changed and new laws created to protect people from blatant discrimination and from being prohibited from 'qualified' work.
You can make excuses for yourself and for others. You can sit and wallow in a fantasy of everyone being racist. Throw a giant pity party for yourself. Or you can get out and work together to lift yourselves up.
No one owes you a living. No one OWES you anything.
But,...when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society,...then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait
What I see is some who are smothering in the cages of their own bad decisions, and others who did what it took to get a good education, find a keep a job, and look forward to an improving life, not relying on the shills who want to pit them against others.
It's true it did not systemic racism or prejudice.
That will be a work in progress for eternity, because it is part of human nature, from one color to another.
I still don't understand what Crack wants. Yes, I've stared at my whiteness in the proverbial mirror and I admit that my ancestors were probably at some point or another "racists." I don't believe I have any slaveholders in my family, although my ancestry is a bit incomplete.
I don't categorize myself as a racist, but Crack will certainly correct me on that, although he does not know me, nor what is in my heart, and can only surmise from my Civil War post that shedding the blood of your brethren is not adequate price to pay to right a wrong.
I am a mongrel. I am one made from many. I may even have 'blackness' in my history — as I've said, I don't know for sure.
To me, race is an artificial construct levied long ago to separate, oppress, and destroy peoples by those more ignorant than me.
Trying to blame slavery or events that happened 150 years ago for the current poor socio economic conditions of black people is a crutch and a poor excuse.
You talk of things, 150 years ago, without acknowledging what followed. Why?
Because there be dragons! All of a sudden, your "race hustlers" Jesse and Al are transformed into giants who are part of a 120 year story of oppression. Normal, fallible men, dogged at the heels by the very same racists who, with their hate, gave them the honorable duty they uphold.
That's why you guys can't talk of anything but slavery - you think if the slave ships are gone, what follows in their wake will dissipate to nothing. But, as always, racists have always made one mistake:
You forget that these are our families.
This nation isn't going to rob us blind, for generations, and then walk away. We ain't America's bitches - we are citizens of these United States - and America will make good. For all the violence, humiliation, denial, oppression, discrimination, ignorance, and everything else blacks have to endure because the Founding Fathers were outright hypocrites damning us to this Hell.
Jefferson said, if God is just, this country will pay.
Well, there's many ways that can be accomplished. I prefer cash.
Making enough people lose faith in this place's ideals is the slow way, but still the one y'all's most afraid of.
I say, with good reason.
Happy MLK Day.
I don't think any of you, enamored with "I Have A Dream", have ever listened to anything else,...
Crack, do you have an idea in mind of how to calculate the amount of reparations? Is it per black at the time a bill is passed. Will it continue for x amount of years to be distributed new blacks born after the passage of the bill?
@deborah: Such numbers are highly debatable. But if Crack were honest, he'd give us a ballpark figure of how much he wants from every white commenter (to be paid to his PayPal account).
It'd be easier would probably make him go away periodically.
I soured on Crack a long time ago for what I still consider very good reasons unrelated to racism. It was his abject rejection of religious tradition which I detailed here.
More recently I saw him angrily lashing out at InstaPundit and at Althouse for no good reason (he mocked and derided her for declining to see "12 Years a Slave") which prompted my earlier post in this series at Lem's.
My earlier "cross words" with Meade were because I perceive that he refuses to play evenhanded.
What a crazy thread. I'd say it's almost a sick-ass thread, but then, I don't dismiss the importance out-of-hand of people wanting to discuss these things.
I see both sides of this as a little screwed up. Of course, CL, black-on-white racism is/wouldn't be right. The question is, why would you be so afraid of it? How is it relevant? Numbers matter. Power matters. The morality of some things simply can't be judged absent a view into their potential for action. It's not wrong to contemplate violence, or to read about it in a book. When you threaten people though, that takes it to a new level. And when you accumulate the resources to inflict it disproportionately, a new level further. Institutionalized violence becomes something else entirely. That's true.
And then we have the phenomenon of separating that from simple inter-communal strife. We've got all types on the East coast. Irish, Italians, what-have-you. I'm sure they competed with each other to make it in America, sometimes with mutual contempt. It happens and you can't separate white-black tensions from that either.
Germany's a stupid comparison. Discounting the Civil War is a stupid thing to do, as well. European genocide happened in a blink of an eye: 12 years. Short enough to compress (is "concentrate" an offensive description?) the astoundingly numerous atrocities into a short enough time period to overwhelm and disgust. But the photographic evidence was there, and the world then got an unprecedented opportunity to contemplate their reactions. And not many in Europe or elsewhere who could or who cared to do much about it beforehand.
Still, the Allies were drawn into an epic struggle to stop the madness surrounding it. WWII was epic war, the culmination of the first attempt at "total war", which was, you guessed it: Union vs. Confederate. The 1/2 million lost in that pales, but it was massive by the standards of our population at the time. Discounting the contributions of abolitionists and unionists is offensively stupid.
Look: There are people and there are populations. Jews don't resent the allies for freeing what was left of them in Europe. They don't spit on the Dutch. Go to an underground railroad house sometime. Crack seems to be speaking for the contingent of blacks that resent the fact that most progress, most liberation, requires allies. It requires strength. Too damn bad. There are good people everywhere. Stop resenting where they came from because you needed their help, too.
And then there's the fucking institutional thing, to which I'm a lot less sympathetic than I once was. Black president twice elected = institutional excuses are over. If that means some black Americans will have to stop relying on creative talents or a shot at an athletic scholarship to make it, so be it. So did everyone else. Community success requires academic/professional ambition and/or entrepreneurship. If you hate Jews or whites for attaining what they have, then you need to realize that's how they moved above their circumstances, without asking anyone else to give it to them.
Affirmative action was reparations, as far as I can tell. How many generations does it need to play out? What has it gotten? If it's disappointed, then I think it's time to question whether reparations of a different and grander sort are really what's needed or if the problem is something else.
Thanks Chip. I know the thread's been going on long enough for this to be the "dying embers" stage, but the tension of waiting to see if that made any sense kept me checking back longer and more frequently than usual. ;-) But I respect your opinions, so the feedback's appreciated.
As for the suggestion, it's funny. But humor aside, I don't think people realize just how devastated the South was after Union victory. They need to watch Gone with the WInd. Yes, the plantation owners lived the high life, and that benefited nearly everyone else around around them. But cotton is not much of a structural economy-builder. When that way of life evaporated, so did the idea that they had a lot of locked-up capital to make use of. No Marshall Plan for them, either. Coming late to true capitalism and industrialization was a net negative, that did them no favors. Let alone the fact that the North suffered almost as massively in the way of lost population.
But had reconstruction proceeded differently, who knows? With the benefit of this much hindsight and broad discussion though, I doubt it.
People forget that much of America's wealth wasn't built until much more recently than that.
210 comments:
1 – 200 of 210 Newer› Newest»I see what you did there.
It does little good to suggest someone reverse races and think about a situation. We see it does no good at all suggesting someone consider reversing parties in regarding any given situation, switch the chessboard around, offense/defense when they are unaccustomed to walking a mile in another man's moccasins, oops that is racist and unhygienic besides, are you kidding me, what with funguses you can get these days?
It's already happening, just in a different way. Would I rather get blasted by a fire hose or be the object of the knockout game?
Speaking of reversing the situation, seems I read where one white idiot played the knockout game and promptly caught the attention of our esteemed, non-racist attorney general.
Now, that's funny.
Crack wants you to send him some money. He'll be your black buddy if you do.
I have nothing against him asking for money; I should do it too. I would go about it differently though.
We have a white guy pretending to be black in the (pardon the term) White House.
Howzat going?
Lem's Comment Home: Where Sanity Takes A Rest Stop
Crack I would be curious to hear your views on ST's claim to be a professional musician.
Crack I would be curious to hear your views on ST's claim to be a professional musician.
I would rather you stayed on topic...
I'm crying, now, ARM.
Wah!
You don't believe me! Wah!
Actually... I don't give a shit.
So, what else you got, ARM?
"I think that the guilt complex of the American white man is so profound, until when you begin to analyze the real condition of the Black man in America, instead of the American white man eliminating the causes that create that condition, he tries to cover it up by accusing his accusers of teaching hate, but actually they're just exposing him for being responsible for what exists."
"instead of the American white man eliminating the causes that create that condition"
ATTACK!
Shouting Thomas said...
You don't believe me!
It's not that I don't believe you, I am calling you a flat-out liar.
Instead of working for a living, whine, beg and plead with whites for handouts.
That's Crack for you.
Helpless as a baby. Lazy as shit.
Will only work if he's appointed Emperor of the World in Charge of Fixing Everything.
Aw, ARM, now my feelings are really hurt.
Nah... I don't give a shit.
Believe what you want to believe.
I know you're a fucking idiot. There's no doubt about that.
Nice try, ARM.
What else you got, moron?
Instead of the American white man eliminating the causes that create that condition.
Note Crack's odd belief that somebody else can fix his problems. Pathetic.
So, he believes in the Magic White Man. If only the Magic White Man would give Crack his stuff, all Crack's problems would be solved.
No wonder he's broke and helpless.
chickenlittle said...
Crack I would be curious to hear your views on ST's claim to be a professional musician.
I would rather you stayed on topic...
I think this is on topic. ST has claimed repeatedly to make a living as a professional musician. In the exceeding unlikely event that this claim is true he is doing it by playing music conceived and created primarily by black musicians. I think it would be of great general interest to hear Crack's views on ST's claim to be a professional musician and to hear an overall critique of ST's 'musical' performances.
Crack, are you still our friend?
Crack, I'm not denying that white on black racism exists in America; I'm asking if black on white racism exists at your blog.
@ARM
I'm stealing from the black man! The perfect idiot remark.
As I said, you've proved that you are a complete fucking idiot.
Let's see your resume.
I'm enjoying laughing at you, moron.
I think this is on topic.
No, it's not. You and ST brought your bickering over from another thread.
I mean, you can't make a man be or feel responsible for slavery based on the color of his skin. It's as logically fallacious as saying that all blacks are slaves.
Hasn't happened.
But if you're angry, and don't have anything more or better to lash out at, I can understand your hatred better.
Come on, chickenlittle,
Crack Googled the web and he found pics. Pics! Right there on the internet.
Some white guy somewhere had as swastika tatooed on his back.
He found a pic on the internet.
How can you dispute that kind of conclusive evidence?
Now, stop being a racist and send all your stuff to Crack.
Freeman Hunt said...
Hasn't happened.
I agree, the black fire hose hasn't happened. But racism is rampant at Crack's place. Photos of lynchings, apportioning blame to anyone who is white (and not specifying there is a difference among white), is just wrong, freeman.
Shouting Thomas said...
I'm stealing from the black man!
Never said this, although it is interesting that this was your interpretation.
Not just mummy issues apparently.
Give us some more tales about your 'job' as a professional musician. I am ready to be enthralled.
Yes, Crack is just randomly cruising around the web looking for pic and videos, posting them, and then demanding that you and I confess and send him our stuff.
It's a dumbshit pretense of "scholarly" research.
@ARM
No.
@ARM
The ego attack isn't working, idiot.
You'll have to try something else.
You got anything?
@freeman: And I do consider that crack's schtick could all be performance art -- but I suspect it's not.
ST, you live in Woodstock, do yoga daily, ride a pushbike and hate lefties with a psychotic passion. Did it ever occur to you that you are the laughing stock of your town?
What are the proceeds for today from whining about racism and begging for handouts from whites for today, Crack?
Zero?
The Emperor of the Universe biz ain't so good, is it?
Do you guys even understand the numbers?
Numerical absolution is irrelevant, crack.
@ARM
It probably doesn't occur to fucking morons, but a wide variety of people live in Woodstock. Including people who aren't lefties. My next door neighbor, out here in the woods, is a retired petrochemical engineer.
You're a moron, so it's tough explaining these things to you.
I could use one syllable words and go real slow.
Is there any way I can help you, moron? I have pity for the stupid and clueless, but I don't always know what's the best way to communicate with them.
Help me out here, idiot.
What you seem to be saying, Crack is that minority groups by definition cannot be racist. That does nothing to solve any problem, but I suppose it goes a long ways in easing your own conscience.
@ARM
Once, again, I've been standing up in front of audiences for over 50 years.
When you do that, you face every kind of criticism you can imagine.
Some people like what I do. Others don't. Thems the breaks.
Ego attacks ceased working on me when I was a teenager.
Race in America is like the U.S. and China. We're told to fear China. They're coming up.
China just built it's first aircraft carrier - we have 18.
Still scared?
The idea, that blacks have done (or could do) anything to America - rather than the other way around - is as ludicrous as fearing China.
And using that unfounded fear, in order to charge others with hate, is historically the same thing your racist forefathers did.
That's the point.
Shouting Thomas said...
I've been standing up in front of audiences for over 50 years.
Boring the crap out of them.
Boring the crap out of them.
Hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
If you don't like it, don't buy a ticket.
You don't survive as a musician, or in any kind of public profession, unless you learn to deal with the reality that some people like what you do, and some don't.
"Can't happen."
I know. Which is why I didn't get the point of this post.
I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror.
Other people probably aren't getting it because they scroll past the stuff you're mirroring.
You're one of the most blatant, outspoken racists I've ever encountered, Crack.
You don't even make an attempt to conceal it.
You owe me an apology for your racism.
I expect a check tomorrow.
You're racism is so extreme that it has crippled your ability to function.
You might want to take a trip over to Crack's blog and read his unapologetic, vicious racist remarks about Filipinos.
It's educational.
Shouting Thomas said...
You don't survive as a musician,
You are not a musician. You play an instrument.
I'll summarize Crack's bitter racist remarks about Filipinos.
Filipino women have no resources and will fuck anybody who offers them money or a visa.
You can't get any more bitterly, viciously racist than that.
The racist is Crack. Once of the worst I've ever encountered. He's selling himself to you as the Savior who will absolve you from your guilt if only you'll send him your money. He is the representative of all that is black.
The reason Crack thinks everybody is a racist is because he is so bitterly racist.
Freeman Hunt said...
I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror.
Exactly.
Crack's site is pure unadulterated racist raving.
freeman hut said:
I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror
I can read good into that and thank you.
Other people probably aren't getting it because they scroll past the stuff you're mirroring.
I admit that my intended audience for this one was rather circumscribed.
Shouting Thomas said...
It was once voted "the most contentious little town in America."
Arguing over whether or not it is more righteous to be vegan or vegetarian does not count as political pluralism. You, no doubt, are a member of the vegan liberation front of upper Woodstock - schismatic division.
Crack lost his marbles and his wit because the overwhelming reality of black violence unnerved him.
I've got to give him some credit for feeling guilty about that reality.
He's gone nuts trying to rationalize the violence as justified retaliation for the past.
Shouting Thomas said...
Any way I can clear things up for you?
Explain to me again how you make a living given the current financial realities of the music industry.
@ARM
Once again, you prove that you're a moron.
The "contentious" part was a reference to the tendency of every faction to drag every other faction through the courts via lawsuit.
@ARM
"... given the current financial realities of the music industry."
Once again you prove that you're a moron.
I'm 64 years old. My career did not play out in the "current financial realities..."
Jesus, is there anything that penetrates your fucking skull?
There are a wide variety of ways for musicians to make money, ARM.
I know you're too stupid to understand, but I'll try to enlighten you.
- Session fees for recording
- Composing for video, TV, movies, etc.
- Teaching
- Royalties for songwriting
- Gig fees for performing as a sideman
These are just a few. A man of extremely limited intellect, such as you, cannot be expected to know this.
I'm trying to help, moron.
Shouting Thomas said...
My career
Give me a fucking break, you can barely play. You are not and never have been a professional musician. You are a dilettante, funded either by a trust fund or a divorce settlement and either way she made you pay.
And I do appreciate your obsessive fascination with me, ARM.
It's just about your best quality.
You're seething with jealousy. I deal with that all the time, too.
Back to the topic.
Crack's epic breakdown was precipitated by guilt over the prevalence of black violence.
He's busy trying to cope.
Shouting Thomas said...
You're seething with jealousy. I deal with that all the time, too.
I'm sure you do. It must be an onerous burden and I want to thank you on behalf of all of your fellow citizens for your willingness to carry this cross through life.
No problema.
Anything else I can do for you?
You're a slow learner, ARM.
I want to be sure you got everything.
In Crack's defense, some of the worst racial hostility I've experienced was white-on-white racism: the time I heard "we'd hire you but we need to hire a woman or a minority." That wasn't exactly a fire hose, but it had financial repercussions for sure. Perhaps reparations would be in order? Maybe an artistic portrayal of a white hosing down another white?
As I said, Crack cracked up over the prevalence of black violence.
He's taken that reality as an accusation against himself, and he's busy constructing a counter attack that proves that the prevalence of black violence is an illusion or justified retaliation.
It's got to be tough to be a black man who isn't violent. People are afraid of you. Half the black men in this country go to jail at some point in your life. You can't banish this from people's minds. You can make them shut up, but they still know the score.
What can you do?
Guilt about the prevalence of black violence has unhinged Crack.
It's not his fault or his burden to carry.
But, it's driving him nuts.
Crack:
"If you see racism in what I'm doing, look at what you're doing, and ask why."
Please re-word that so I understand what you are saying.
"I admit that my intended audience for this one was rather circumscribed."
Not at Crack's Blog. You see he hates the Jews even more than he does regular white guys.
I think that is what you call a "Black Thing."
Paging Yankel Rosenbaum.
Here is an article where a 35 year old yute was arrested for "knocking out" five Jewish woman including a 78 year old.
Now this is of course a myth or a worst a high spirited yute who was simply "venting."
Here is the New York Daily News report with an artists rendition of the alleged perpetrator.
For some reason he was originally charged with a hate crime but it was downgraded and they did not provide a photo or a perp walk.
Maybe because he is a mythical personage like a unicorn or something.
Oh and one more thing. He was charged on January 4th, 2014 so it is not like it was some recent thing like the Civil War or something like that there if you catch my drift.
Freeman:
"I think some people aren't getting your blog because they're underestimating it. It's not straightforward argumentation. It's art. It's a mirror. The arguing should be about the accuracy of the mirror."
Maybe a better term would be Rorschach test? At any rate, it appears to me he's making it up as he goes along.
There was a reason why Althouse flushed the toilet.
deborah,
Crack:
"If you see racism in what I'm doing, look at what you're doing, and ask why."
Please re-word that so I understand what you are saying.
Look at ST's ravings. What would my blog look like if it mirrored his mindset - in black?
Try his "logic" on for size:
Blacks, after half a century, feel such guilt about black violence we're going nuts - meanwhile, we can all see ST's mental problem (cognitive dissonance) completely ignores the FOUR CENTURIES of extreme white violence, anger, and racism that's actually on display in his unhinged behavior.
Those are my tools now. I use posts from this blog also - what you choose to cover (or, more importantly, don't) how you frame things (rarely from the black side, always with sympathy for whites - which, historically, means you, as whites, have changed not-at-all) and even what topics are important to you:
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
Martin Luther King should've dedicated his life to that.
I get attacked for trying to do the opposite - think about that on MLK Day.
Maybe then you'll understand?
ARM's obsession over ST's career/non-career is hilarious.
It would be truly funny if ST claimed to have been an accountant
YOU WERE NEVER AN ACCOUNTANT! YOU NEVER ACCOUNTED FOR ANYTHING!
Trooper York said...
He has a bunch of posts lately telling us that the Holocaust is no big deal compared to the suffering of the black man.
I saw that and it looked new. I thought it was the Malcolm X he started channeling.
Blacks, after half a century, feel such guilt about black violence we're going nuts...
Here's the problem, Crack.
You aren't "blacks." You're one guy... Crack.
I said that Crack is feeling guilty, not blacks.
You are so thoroughly, viciously racist that you continue to address everything through this strange lens.
Stop with the weird attempt to paint yourself as a corporate entity. You're just one guy.
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
Yes.
Chip's bit is useful to people. I already knew how to do it, but lots of people don't.
You're megalomania is useless, and damaging to yourself.
He loves him some religion - Black Muslim, MLK's church-based activism, whatever.
Just don't mention it to him. His tiny lazy crazy head might explode.
He is as sane as he is consistent.
Chip Ahoy's demonstration of how to make a tube in Photoshop is so much more important than fixing the problems this nation made for generations of Americans, black and white, isn't it?
One day, maybe blog posts will save the world.
He has a bunch of posts lately telling us that the Holocaust is no big deal compared to the suffering of the black man.
6 million Vs. 25 million.
You're right - the Jews win.
White logic at it's best.
I love it:
It's simple math and, when white people do it, blacks still lose.
But you're not racists,...
Where did you get the 25 million number, Crack? I understand that math is not something you are good at, but please explain how you came up with that number.
Your math and your history are bogus, Crack.
The persecution of Jews predates the Holocaust by a longshot.
It didn't start with the Holocaust.
You're only off by 2,000 years. So, I'll give you credit for that.
But, I get your jealousy, Crack.
I know Jews who survived the extermination of their entire extended family in the Holocaust.
Without exception, those survivors that I know succeeded brilliantly in the U.S.
You are consumed by jealousy.
Our problem here is that paying attention to Crack, and giving serious credence to his megalomania only causes him to double down.
World savers in Woodstock are the same. You can exhaust yourself and waste your life arguing endlessly with them about their obsessions.
You can't derail them from their obsessions. That's all they've got. This obsession is all Crack's got. Take it away and his life is completely empty.
The only way to help Crack is to ignore him.
Slavery ended in this country in 1865. Four hundred years before that would be 1465. So, by Crack's calculation, slavery started here before Columbus discovered the place.
Math - it's not your friend, Crack.
Google showed me this:
"From page 1, section 2 predicts by David Stannard in American Holocaust (1992), estimates that some 30-60 million Africans died being enslaved. 50% mortality during capture and stored, a 10% mortality among the survivors while crossing the ocean and another 50% mortality rate 1st year. Overall, 35-80 % mortality rate in transit."
But on the PBS page:
"The most comprehensive analysis of shipping records over the course of the slave trade is the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, edited by professors David Eltis and David Richardson. (While the editors are careful to say that all of their figures are estimates, I believe that they are the best estimates that we have, the proverbial “gold standard” in the field of the study of the slave trade.) Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.
And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That’s right: a tiny percentage."
Using Crack math, 388,000 = 25,000,000.
Remedial math, stat, Crack.
The Root.com adds this to the PBS account:
"In fact, the overwhelming percentage of the African slaves were shipped directly to the Caribbean and South America; Brazil received 4.86 million Africans alone! Some scholars estimate that another 60,000 to 70,000 Africans ended up in the United States after touching down in the Caribbean first, so that would bring the total to approximately 450,000 Africans who arrived in the United States over the course of the slave trade.
Incredibly, most of the 42 million members of the African-American community descend from this tiny group of less than half a million Africans. And I, for one, find this amazing."
Total = 450,000, best estimate.
In that case, Crack's 25 million death toll stands!
I've noticed a huge uptick, particularly w/ young black males, being anti-Semitic. They fail to understand basic history being it was Jews riding the Freedom buses in Dixie. As Chris Rock says, "If you want to hide your money from black burglars in the hood, just put it in a book. Ain't no young, black man goin' to open a book!"
I do not understand why people here get so bent out of shape regarding Crack's claim that American remains quite racist. You simply need to read the comments on his site to see the truth of this.
This being said, it is my strong impression that the US is one of the least racist countries on earth. Given how the human mind works this is a low bar to cross but it is something that we can have some modest pride in and, given our history, some hope for the future. Nonetheless Crack's perspective remains legitimate, being one of the best of a very bad bunch is still a long way from perfection.
I cannot see how it hurts to acknowledge the truth of at least some of what he says. I personally do not feel threatened by the knowledge that I fall well short of perfection. "There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - LC.
"Cracked vessels can't hold water" - B.B.
@ARM
Uh...
Let's see... "America remains quite racist."
Then... "the US is one of the least racist countries on earth."
Your stupidity is really funny.
Does somebody help you put on your underpants in the morning?
Interestingly, the Roots.com article with the above info ("How Many Slaves Landed in the US?") was written by Henry Louis Gates, Jr.
1. I have no "white guilt" over slavery in the United States. My ancestors have had no connection whatsoever with participating in slavery: most of them being Welsh and Irish descent and immigrating AFTER the Civil War. Others who were here before, actively participated in trying to END slavery (you're welcome Crack). They were Quakers and abolitionist in the North.
2. Guilt trips don't work on me even "IF" I were guilty of something. I don't roll that way.
3. I have been the victim of reverse racism when in SF having my car and myself attacked merely because I was a white chick in a wrong neighborhood. Blacks are among the worst and most unapologetic racists that I have ever come across, with the exception of the Chinese.....but they don't attack you personally. Their racism is much more subtle and insidious.
4. Crack should get some perspective and stop blaming everyone for his own problems. Calling everyone racists because HIS life is sucking right now. Blacks in general should do what other put upon ethnic and religious groups have done. Work towards BETTERING your own people and help each other improve. If you want to stop being slaves, liberate yourself from your own self imposed chains of clinging to the past and refusing to play the whining caving victim game that the politicians love to use you for.
Better your own society. Lift each other UP. You could start with the racist animals who are perpetrating the 'knock out game' on elderly people just because they are white. If this behavior continues and no one in your community does anything about it....I guarantee you it will not turn out well as some true racists on the white side are going to get real tired of this shit. Trust me on this.
Oh....and fuck off too.
Shouting Thomas said...
Our problem here is that paying attention to Crack, and giving serious credence to his megalomania only causes him to double down
There's something to that.
Folks,
I have 35 years of experience in Woodstock trying to get megalomanic world savers to talk about something other than their prized theory about what's wrong with the world and how to fix it.
Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
Nothing you say can derail the world savers from their appointed mission. Everything you say can and will be repurposed to fit within their single mania.
My advice. Give up. I gave up in Woodstock, and it improved my life. A lot.
That said, I'm going to do some useful, productive things today and I'm going to ignore Crack for an extended period.
I'm off to the gym.
ARM: "I do not understand why people here get so bent out of shape regarding Crack's claim that American remains quite racist."
Because it's a tired old trump card meant to shut up whomever is speaking.
Everyone is tribal.
No shit.
Who gives a damn?
What's your next step?
Nothing.
The 'racism' observation leads nowhere except to further Balkanize people against each other.
Under Obama, race relations have gotten worse precisely because he and Althouse and others repeatedly play the race card.
Fuck that.
Shouting Thomas said...
I gave up in Woodstock, and it improved my life. A lot.
The day when mummy finally set up the trust fund was the day when your life improved a lot.
Shouting Thomas said...
I'm off to the gym.
I hear the organic baby arugula salad is delightful at this time of year.
Pogo is Dead said...
Because it's a tired old trump card meant to shut up whomever is speaking.
Everyone is different but I don't find Crack's comments generally fall into this category. He would like a discussion, or he wouldn't keep coming back.
I was referring to your claim of racism, not Crack's, although it could be equally laid at his doorstep.
There is no point to further discussion of racism. It leads nowhere, nothing constructive comes of it.
It is a rumination on hate, and only destroys the individual. It is especially destructive when the racism card is played against people who are not fucking racist.
I tell you all this racism talk has sorely hardened my heart.
chickenlittle,
Shouting Thomas said…
Our problem here is that paying attention to Crack, and giving serious credence to his megalomania only causes him to double down
There's something to that.
Whites think blacks think like them - which is why they're so scared of us attacking them unprovoked - which is creepy.
You make up your own rules, rewrite history, come up with your own interpretations - anything but face facts.
And you see no connection to this behavior and the behavior of your ancestors. Interesting:
You're, literally, "culturally blind" to yourselves,..
He would like a discussion,
A discussion is where two or more people sit down and civilly talk about an issue. Exchange ideas and perhaps change minds and possibly come to a consensus.
None of these are what Crack [and some others] are participating in. Crack says we are all racists. Period. No discussion. No budging on that idea. Done. There is zero point in having a 'discussion' with someone in that mindset. Talk to the hand.
Pogo is Dead,
I tell you all this racism talk has sorely hardened my heart.
White people - they hear black's feelings and get mad enough to kill.
Nothing new in 400 years,...
Dust Bunny Queen,
Talk to the hand.
No, thanks - it's always been white, with a gun in it.
And - from the mass of dead black bodies - I don't think you fully appreciate who's been stopping "discussion".
In the old days, whites called "discussion" a lynching.
You'll never change - like Oprah said, just die,...
Pogo is Dead said...
There is no point to further discussion of racism. It leads nowhere, nothing constructive comes of it.
I am not sure I agree with this. I have found writers as diverse as Steve Sailer, John Derbyshire, Ta-Nehisi Coates and Crack have all had interesting things to say on the topic on occasion. It is part of the human condition.
"...have all had interesting things to say on the topic on occasion. It is part of the human condition."
I dunno.
All that comes out are insults, recriminations and reactions, demand for reparation and rejections of said demands.
Like Crack's post above to me. I said my heart was being hardened, and he accused me of wanting to kill.
It's time to STFU about racism already, and move on. You can't fix the past 400 years. There is no slavery in the US, no Jim Crow, no nothing. But not a thing, supposedly, has gotten any better.
What useless bullshit.
I was walking to the kitchen and then WHAM! - it hit me:
YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU'RE REASONABLE!
ROTFLMAO!!!
There is no slavery in the US, no Jim Crow, no nothing. But not a thing, supposedly, has gotten any better.
THAT'S BECAUSE WHITES HAVE ALL THE SLAVERY MONEY.
Forgot that part in your assessment,...
"WHITES HAVE ALL THE SLAVERY MONEY."
I guess I didn't get my share because my ancestors arrived after the Civil War.
I guess I didn't get my share because my ancestors arrived after the Civil War.
To nothing? A poor country where whites earned everything fairly by the sweat of their brows?
Give me a break,...
Your ancestors came here and, like the Nazis taking Jewish apartments, took advantage of slavery's profits like everyone else.
"...took advantage of slavery's profits like everyone else."
I'm not sure what slavery's profits were on my great-grandparent's tiny farm in rural South Dakota in 1875. Sounds like it was HUGE.
So why they were living in poverty is unclear to me. Must have been really bad with their share of the slave money.
@ARM
Amazingly, I can access the web at the gym while riding the stationary bike. Ain't life amazing? My gym is 10 bucks a month. I've been pretty successful, so I could afford more, but for what purpose?
I don't care for arugula. I prefer romaine.
Since you are so fascinated by my bio, I'll accommodate you a little.
I was born in 1950 in a shotgun shack in the middle of the cornfields in Illinois. Son of non-union factory workers.
My dad's nickname was "Spic." He was one of 11 siblings. His mother died when he was very young. He was called "Spic" because, alone among his siblings, he walked down to the creek on winter mornings to wash himself before he went to school. Thus, his nickname was originally "Spic 'N Span," and later shortened to just "Spic."
I'm the first member of my extended family to earn any kind of college degree.
As I said, your stupidity is downright hilarious, made all the more hilarious by the gravitas with which it is delivered.
I've got a roll of hundred dollar bills in my pocket from my weekend gigs. I could send you a pic, I guess.
I appreciate your obsession with my life and work. There is no such thing as bad PR!
Whoops!
Those hundred dollar bills probably are slave money, and I should send them immediately to Crack!
Shit, I think I'll invest in a little 420 instead!
THANKS, POGO!
The difference between me and Crack, folks, is my father.
He grew up poor and he struggled all his life, but he was a fantastic committed, loving and instructive father.
Everything I have I owe to him. God bless him.
When he died, I understood in a really brutal, gut level way, that God is the Father.
Father investment in their children is what separates blacks and whites.
Your ancestors came here and, like the Nazis taking Jewish apartments, took advantage of slavery's profits like everyone else.
Right. Tell that to my Welsh Great Grandfather who went to work in the coal mines in Rock Springs Wyoming in 1889. Wow....did he get rich on the backs of you slaves. Living the life of Riley. I bet he had a stash of secret slaves stashed in the basement of his house.....Bwahahahahah......Oh wait. He didn't OWN a house. It was owned by the mining company.
Maybe it was my other Irish Great Grandparents who came over during the potato famine and worked as bricklayers in Chicago and other cities in the North East. Man...did they ever profit and get rich from slavery. (not)
You are an idiot.
@DBQ
I share just about the same bio.
What a shock to arrive at the University of Illinois in 1966 to discover, according to my humanities profs, that I was the beneficiary of white privilege!
Crack, do you have any specific suggestions about how we could direct our energies in aim of a better future for race relations?
@Crack:
I'm glad my heavy heart proved of use to you.
@ARM
I lied!
I don't have any 100 buck bills.
Pain in the ass!
So, I took them to the bank this morning and broke them down to 20s.
I lied! Sue me!
So, yeah, Crack is a ground breaking genius, and he's broke.
I'm just a hack, but I actually make money playing stuff audiences want to hear.
I make people happy.
Go figure.
DBQ,
As Wyoming did not become a state until 1890, then slavery would obviously have been illegal, as this was after the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865. However, if the question refers to the legality of slavery in southern Wyoming in earlier times, then the answer must be a qualified 'yes.'
deborah said...
Crack, do you have any specific suggestions about how we could direct our energies in aim of a better future for race relations?
Yes - deal with it forthrightly. None of this hemming and hawing, denying, etc. Look at our history unvarnished, finally.
If you don't, you're going to be in for a lot of ugly surprises. And here's the thing:
Nobody wants that - especially not blacks.
Your resistance is what makes a "struggle"
An this pertains to my ancestors who didn't arrive in this country until the mid 1880's and who took up a life of HARD labor, barely surviving..... how?
Try to spin a hard life as a coal miner in Rock Springs, Wyo as a life of luxury living off of the backs of 'former' slaves. Go ahead.
Crack translated:
All your life, you've been subjected to the same damned lecture from blacks, and you've got to sit through it unto eternity.
In other words, you have to kiss Crack's ass. Maybe that's the true reason for his name. You must constantly have your nose up Crack's ass.
He's more important than you, because he's black.
This is all about Crack's selfishness. Everybody is supposed to focus on him, even though he's accomplished nothing.
He's a conservative of some kind, too, so we're really obliged to stick our nose in his butt Crack.
What a childish man!
Look, everybody here knows I argued against discussing face for years. ST and Pogo especially.
But what did you guys do? You kept going, making me a spectator to YOUR racism.
So now I mirror you - and you don't like it.
You actually see - say it with me - RACISM.
And you finally understand that, my MLK Day will be made,...
Crack, I don't give a fuck about racism. I don't owe blacks shit. If blacks want to take my shit from me, they'll have to do it at the point of a gun.
I won't listen to any lectures. If you start giving them to me, I'll stuff them back up your lazy black ass.
You're just another guy, and not a very impressive one at that.
I'm not sure if the numbers cited here include the 620,000 military deaths associated with The Civil War, or the war in which we decided to kill each other to change the national policy on slavery.
Shouting Thomas said...
You're just another guy, and not a very impressive one at that.
Repeat after me - no one with your limited skill set is a "professional musician".
EMD said...
I'm not sure if the numbers cited here include the 620,000 military deaths associated with The Civil War, or the war in which we decided to kill each other to change the national policy on slavery.
Diverting the issue of blacks to the Civil War is a cop out. We've got a billion Civil War movies and hardly any of them feature slaves. Stay on point.
It's wild to me to see the same scenarios recreated all over again:
After the Civil War, where the benevolence yore alluding to happened, the country (North and South) went back to being ruthlessly vicious to blacks in about 10-to-12 years.
That lasted for approx. 100+ years.
See what I mean?
@ARM
Oh, fuck you!
I don't need or want your approval.
I'm a mean, tough bastard, courtesy mostly of a lifetime of dealing with jealous morons like you. There are always a couple.
None of them have managed to derail me yet. In fact, that tactic only stiffens my spine and pushes me forward.
I feed on the jealousy of idiots like you, and leave them in the dust.
On the other hand, you have the whimpering beggar, Crack.
Deluded into believing that white people hold the answer to his problems.
The poor bastard is doomed.
No father to tell him that he either makes it on his own or he gets nothing.
Pitiful.
Crack, do you have any male pride?
Any at all?
Are you ever going to do anything but beg white folks for stuff?
What's that gotten you so far?
Crack wrote: So now I mirror you - and you don't like it.
Based on the post you put up in response to my post, you didn't like the reflection of the mirror I put up. That was a reflection of a mirror of a mirror of a mirror.
Have you seen an uptick in donations over the last 12 hrs? If not, then there is no further way for me to help your cause.
Parting shot...this reminded me of you.
chicken,
I didn't dislike what you did, I thought it was insane. An open door to your paranoia.
You do realize that can't happen, don't you?
So what does the pic say about you? About your (totally unrealistic) fears?
And then, having those fears, using them to gin up others against blacks - for whom those fears are not only real but already realized?
I tell you, you know nothing about how American racism "works"
Well this hasn't been the most edifying of spectacles with which to celebrate the birthday of MLK but dialog is always good. I am glad Crack is back.
ARM,
Please.
Before MLK got killed, this is all there was.
ST would've been sending him death threats,...
@Crack,
I think it would be best if we never communicate with one another directly again.
Have a good life.
Peace, brother.
Does anyone actually find it interesting to watch personality disorders argue with each other? I certainly don't, one reason I'm not here much anymore.
Frankly, the spectacle of this thread defeats the purpose of it. I've lived in places in Asia where racism existed between persons of the same color and genealogical background. I have friends living in similar places now, such as central Africa.
The "racism" in such places is different from that expressed on all sides here in the US of A. Time we owned up to that simple fact.
No, when I hear anyone in this country spout the term "racist" or "racism" I know they are being specific...against Negroes, ,or Waspy "whites", then Jews, or East Asians, or miscellaneous sundry ethnic white folks. Period. We, and our government of morons, even go to extremes to define just what "kind of white folks" are included. Any scientific analysis would equate Obama as at least half as white as I am or equally as white my kid is...but no, Obama is black and my kid is white. Right?
Hey, it is just like the thread about how we lie to ourselves isn't it? I called that a fallacy, however, Synova made some good points regarding my ideas...and after this thread, flip-flop, I think it is true, we lie to ourselves constantly. Almost No one on this thread has been honest(a few have been, and mocked)...tragedy is that they may not even know it.
You want to know what honor between humans is, regardless of race or ethnicity? Read Marcus Luttrell's book or see the damn movie. To save innocent Pashtun life, of a different race and culture, four guys sacrificed themselves with only one surviving because of the efforts of another Pashtun who applied another, however similar, code of honor.
Main question: does anyone think those four Seals didn't know what would happen when they let the shepherds go?
If you do, you just don't understand. I saw men do similar things in my war and never ceased to be awed by them and their integrity and courage. A periodic commenter here has a favorite song: "Blood on the Risers" and that code is what it is all about. Even here. At home.
I will stop to help any man or woman in the dark anywhere here, frequently along Warren Avenue near 24th street where the roadway curves and accidents happen. The locale is sort of famous if you know who Malice Green was...and I do, he was killed by a friend of mine, in the line of duty, but who also served his time, in prison, and recently died too. So far, though I am always armed, I have never had instance to draw a weapon, just opportunities to help folks now and then, black or white, yellow or brown. People. Like me.
I saw men with "airborne" tabs on their shoulders, plus other badges, do things to save civilian nationals that astounded me. The very least I can do as a civilian now these 40 years later is to be at least as considerate.
No I don't care what color you are. If you care, about either of us, that's your problem.
Palladian said ...
... one reason I'm not here much anymore.
And that is one reason you need to be here more often. A thread cannot be subverted if others show up...including me who has sat on the sideline this time until the end, but won't in the future.
I think Lem, and his crew of posters, tries hard to make this place worthwhile. I'll try to be a positive addition to that from now on.
Seems like old times, albeit BAD old times.
One last thing. On this day, celebrating MLK's birthday (actually it was 15 April...but government likes to re-order things) I prefer to remember 04 April 1968, the day Martin Luther King died. Shot by a coward, from ambush. By late evening we expected a riot, it was Detroit after all...and NO riot occurred.
One of the few days in those days I was proud of my town...I'd given my revolver to a young woman who'd been ordered to stay overnight in the bar where she worked to "protect" it, on the WSU campus.
We shared a great cup of coffee the next morning when I went to retrieve the revolver on my way to work....I didn't have class until 6:20 that night, thereafter I got beers for free for me and my friends. :) All of us were grateful that Detroit, of all places, did not blow up. None of us were happy about the sick fuckers in Memphis....but except for a few of us, we were just as white.
Funny how that made less difference then than it does today.
Aridog said...
Funny how that made less difference then than it does today.
You were much younger. Class, caste and racial divisions harden with age. Young people now are just as idealistic as you ever were.
ARM ... where you are wrong is that you imply that I am less "idealistic" than when I was younger. The thing is I notice the difference and remark negatively.
If anything I am more idealistic now, as hard experience has taught me what works and what does not. As I've said before, I believe in integrity and honor, and never more so than now.
I don't think that I am superior to "black people" or "African americans" or whatever the preferred nomenclature is these days, but I feel very confident that I am superior to Crack MC.
Probably just my white privilege showing.
I do enjoy a good off topic pissing contest between ST and ARM, reminds me of the good old days.
Care about what Dr. King said; ignore those who choose to subvert it.
Also Crack, the only reparations you will be getting from me is this heartfelt statement:
I personally think Richard Sherman is awesome.
You are welcome.
Good luck with the E-begging.
"Can't Happen?"
Can what not happen?
You take a black and white photo from a 1963 LIFE magazine and flip it from positive to negative to point out that what? - black Americans could conceivably gain a racial demographic majority, segregate and oppress white Americans, and then, when white Americans finally stand up and demand civil rights equal to their black majority oppressors, the black oppressors turn fire hoses and attack dogs on the peaceful white minority demonstrators?
What do you think, chickenlittle?
I'd say it's about as likely as ricpic knockout punching Trooper York.
I am sorry you find this less than edifying but the spectacle of the Crack Emcee quoting his pal Oprah Winfrey is vastly amusing.
It seems that most of the race hustlers use the same play book.
@Meade: I don't get the demographic angle at all. Look at South Africa for example -- then and now. Do you and Crack (and Ann for that matter) seriously think black on white racism should get a pass? Yes or no please.
I look at Crack's blog and see blatant black on white racism supported by blatant white on black photos. And I look at your interaction over there and I see you enabling him.
@And enough with the black fire hose unreality: tell me what you really think of The Crack Emcee.
And take your time, Meade. I gotta run, but I'll be back.
Personality disorders attract each other.
Some people are really simpletons and it is not worth engaging them.
I would recommend that as a course of action. But to each their own.
Why is the "knock out game" happening?
Does anyone have a theory
as to what inspires so much
rage?
Who or what inspired all or that anger?
Could one possibility be that a certain person was portrayed by the media as 100% innocent and child-like, with facts twisted for maximum narrative? Could it be a president spoke of the incident and personalized it as though it was a crime against his own family?
Now retribution against other innocent persons must take place.
It must.
Right?
Righteous rage.
Just curious.
@Palladian. Agreed. That's why I'm here.
;)
btw - I was thinking about your knowledge of extracting scents or perfume making. Remind me, if you don't mind, of your expertise? I'm very fascinated with that.
Why won't Barbara Walters(D), the silly ladies on The View(D), the eternally ridiculous Matt lauer(D), David Gregory(D) or Brian Williams(D) invite a "knock out game" player over for an interview?
hmmmm.
I think the “why” answer would be telling.
Unless it's narrative seeking and democrat promotion, our hack media do not care, and they are not interested in the truth.
MLK would not approve of the knock out game.
Obama? What say you? Obama injected himself to gain the division that helped spur the anger he needed to promote himself and his party.
Now - where is he? The Knock out game is a big f*cking deal.
Because like the Crack Emcee the President does not think the "Knock Out" game is no big thing.
In fact I bet he would love to go punch Bibi right in the head. He has a thing for Jews you know.
Because like the Crack Emcee the President does not think the "Knock Out" game is no big thing.
In fact I bet he would love to go punch Bibi right in the head. He has a thing for Jews you know.
"dedicate your livers"
even spell check knows you
Funny how that made less difference then than it does today.
Unattended to problems become compounded by inaction.
That's not so hard to understand.
E-begging is an excellent way to further your goals crack.
That will show them that you will no longer have patience.
Dr. King would be so proud of you.
One upping the victim card by time traveling into the past doesn't really cut it anymore.
chickenlittle said...
@Meade: I don't get the demographic angle at all. Look at South Africa for example -- then and now. Do you and Crack (and Ann for that matter) seriously think black on white racism should get a pass? Yes or no please.
How do you define black on white racism?
If you're trying to posit blacks have no reason to be angry, you're tripping. That's like saying you don't understand a Jew who doesn't want to go to Germany.
And why - after 400 years of abuse - is your concern for the abusers?
Where, on MLK Day, is your cry for justice for blacks?
RACIST.
"dedicate your livers"
even spell check knows you
OK that was really funny.
Look. People are in poverty all over the world and in the US. Take a gander at Appalachia. White poor people. Trying to blame slavery or events that happened 150 years ago for the current poor socio economic conditions of black people is a crutch and a poor excuse. Chinese who were basically imported as slave laborers in the West to work on the railroads and in the mines were not treated any better. YET....you don't see the Chinese community as a whole wallowing in self pity.
What can get people out of poverty? Lots of things. Work! Self help among the community from churches, family and others who have already made the leg up. Education!!!!!!! Attitude, is everything to an employer. The list of cultural attributes to get people out of the poverty trap is much too long to go into here. Most of those items or improvements to get ahead have nothing to do with your skin color. The poor whites in the hills of East Virginia are just as bad in their culture and lifestyles.
Is there discrimination? NO one is denying that there was in the past....a lot. However, this isn't the past and people who are truly racist are fewer and far between. The laws have been changed and new laws created to protect people from blatant discrimination and from being prohibited from 'qualified' work.
You can make excuses for yourself and for others. You can sit and wallow in a fantasy of everyone being racist. Throw a giant pity party for yourself. Or you can get out and work together to lift yourselves up.
No one owes you a living. No one OWES you anything.
But,...when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society,...then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait
What I see is some who are smothering in the cages of their own bad decisions, and others who did what it took to get a good education, find a keep a job, and look forward to an improving life, not relying on the shills who want to pit them against others.
Regardless of color.
The Civil War ended state-sponsored slavery.
It's true it did not systemic racism or prejudice.
That will be a work in progress for eternity, because it is part of human nature, from one color to another.
I still don't understand what Crack wants. Yes, I've stared at my whiteness in the proverbial mirror and I admit that my ancestors were probably at some point or another "racists." I don't believe I have any slaveholders in my family, although my ancestry is a bit incomplete.
I don't categorize myself as a racist, but Crack will certainly correct me on that, although he does not know me, nor what is in my heart, and can only surmise from my Civil War post that shedding the blood of your brethren is not adequate price to pay to right a wrong.
I am a mongrel. I am one made from many. I may even have 'blackness' in my history — as I've said, I don't know for sure.
To me, race is an artificial construct levied long ago to separate, oppress, and destroy peoples by those more ignorant than me.
So, that said, what's the end-game Crack?
What do you want from me?
Me, I DEMAND more white basketball players!
I also DEMAND Malcolm X Day!
MLK was a chump compared to El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, who knew what was what.
And this post is not in jest.
Trying to blame slavery or events that happened 150 years ago for the current poor socio economic conditions of black people is a crutch and a poor excuse.
Jim Crow was in effect when I was a kid.
That's not 150 years ago.
You guys talk silly.
You were raised by ex-slaves. You talk silly, too.
Crack should relocate to Monrovia.
(This post is in jest.)
So, that said, what's the end-game Crack?
What do you want from me?
Justice for my people.
You talk of things, 150 years ago, without acknowledging what followed. Why?
Because there be dragons! All of a sudden, your "race hustlers" Jesse and Al are transformed into giants who are part of a 120 year story of oppression. Normal, fallible men, dogged at the heels by the very same racists who, with their hate, gave them the honorable duty they uphold.
That's why you guys can't talk of anything but slavery - you think if the slave ships are gone, what follows in their wake will dissipate to nothing. But, as always, racists have always made one mistake:
You forget that these are our families.
This nation isn't going to rob us blind, for generations, and then walk away. We ain't America's bitches - we are citizens of these United States - and America will make good. For all the violence, humiliation, denial, oppression, discrimination, ignorance, and everything else blacks have to endure because the Founding Fathers were outright hypocrites damning us to this Hell.
Jefferson said, if God is just, this country will pay.
Well, there's many ways that can be accomplished. I prefer cash.
Making enough people lose faith in this place's ideals is the slow way, but still the one y'all's most afraid of.
I say, with good reason.
Happy MLK Day.
I don't think any of you, enamored with "I Have A Dream", have ever listened to anything else,...
Sixty Grit said...
You were raised by ex-slaves. You talk silly, too.
You never did check with Freeman Hunt on whether I was lying or not, did you?
Chicken.
Funniest shit I've read in a long time.
You talk of things, 150 years ago, without acknowledging what followed. Why?
Your reading comprehension matches your self-esteem.
Martin Luther King was a man who made most Americans, black and white, uncomfortable."
Funniest shit I've read in a long time.
Funniest shit I've read is The Knockout Game.
Enjoy.
Crack, do you have an idea in mind of how to calculate the amount of reparations? Is it per black at the time a bill is passed. Will it continue for x amount of years to be distributed new blacks born after the passage of the bill?
Funniest shit I have seen today is the number of hits your youtube channel is getting.
I think maybe you need another stream for your reparations to flow in your coffers.
How is that Amazon link working out?
You certainly aren't making any money off of your "music."
@deborah: Such numbers are highly debatable. But if Crack were honest, he'd give us a ballpark figure of how much he wants from every white commenter (to be paid to his PayPal account).
It'd be easier would probably make him go away periodically.
Thanks for the link, chick.
You've been posting to get him to come over and play :)
Mean of me, wasn't it, deborah?
I soured on Crack a long time ago for what I still consider very good reasons unrelated to racism. It was his abject rejection of religious tradition which I detailed here.
More recently I saw him angrily lashing out at InstaPundit and at Althouse for no good reason (he mocked and derided her for declining to see "12 Years a Slave") which prompted my earlier post in this series at Lem's.
My earlier "cross words" with Meade were because I perceive that he refuses to play evenhanded.
But we knew that already :)
What a crazy thread. I'd say it's almost a sick-ass thread, but then, I don't dismiss the importance out-of-hand of people wanting to discuss these things.
I see both sides of this as a little screwed up. Of course, CL, black-on-white racism is/wouldn't be right. The question is, why would you be so afraid of it? How is it relevant? Numbers matter. Power matters. The morality of some things simply can't be judged absent a view into their potential for action. It's not wrong to contemplate violence, or to read about it in a book. When you threaten people though, that takes it to a new level. And when you accumulate the resources to inflict it disproportionately, a new level further. Institutionalized violence becomes something else entirely. That's true.
And then we have the phenomenon of separating that from simple inter-communal strife. We've got all types on the East coast. Irish, Italians, what-have-you. I'm sure they competed with each other to make it in America, sometimes with mutual contempt. It happens and you can't separate white-black tensions from that either.
Germany's a stupid comparison. Discounting the Civil War is a stupid thing to do, as well. European genocide happened in a blink of an eye: 12 years. Short enough to compress (is "concentrate" an offensive description?) the astoundingly numerous atrocities into a short enough time period to overwhelm and disgust. But the photographic evidence was there, and the world then got an unprecedented opportunity to contemplate their reactions. And not many in Europe or elsewhere who could or who cared to do much about it beforehand.
Still, the Allies were drawn into an epic struggle to stop the madness surrounding it. WWII was epic war, the culmination of the first attempt at "total war", which was, you guessed it: Union vs. Confederate. The 1/2 million lost in that pales, but it was massive by the standards of our population at the time. Discounting the contributions of abolitionists and unionists is offensively stupid.
Look: There are people and there are populations. Jews don't resent the allies for freeing what was left of them in Europe. They don't spit on the Dutch. Go to an underground railroad house sometime. Crack seems to be speaking for the contingent of blacks that resent the fact that most progress, most liberation, requires allies. It requires strength. Too damn bad. There are good people everywhere. Stop resenting where they came from because you needed their help, too.
And then there's the fucking institutional thing, to which I'm a lot less sympathetic than I once was. Black president twice elected = institutional excuses are over. If that means some black Americans will have to stop relying on creative talents or a shot at an athletic scholarship to make it, so be it. So did everyone else. Community success requires academic/professional ambition and/or entrepreneurship. If you hate Jews or whites for attaining what they have, then you need to realize that's how they moved above their circumstances, without asking anyone else to give it to them.
Affirmative action was reparations, as far as I can tell. How many generations does it need to play out? What has it gotten? If it's disappointed, then I think it's time to question whether reparations of a different and grander sort are really what's needed or if the problem is something else.
Great comment, Ritmo. Not much to add but this...
Crack wants some of that "slavery money," and just to show what a great guy I am, I'm willing to pay him a bunch of it.
I'm offering the Federal Reserve Note value of $100 in Confederate notes evaluated at their May 1865 exchange rate.
I mean, that was the slaveowners' money, right?
The Crack Emcee said...
Jefferson said, if God is just, this country will pay.
This may be what he had in mind.
Thanks Chip. I know the thread's been going on long enough for this to be the "dying embers" stage, but the tension of waiting to see if that made any sense kept me checking back longer and more frequently than usual. ;-) But I respect your opinions, so the feedback's appreciated.
As for the suggestion, it's funny. But humor aside, I don't think people realize just how devastated the South was after Union victory. They need to watch Gone with the WInd. Yes, the plantation owners lived the high life, and that benefited nearly everyone else around around them. But cotton is not much of a structural economy-builder. When that way of life evaporated, so did the idea that they had a lot of locked-up capital to make use of. No Marshall Plan for them, either. Coming late to true capitalism and industrialization was a net negative, that did them no favors. Let alone the fact that the North suffered almost as massively in the way of lost population.
But had reconstruction proceeded differently, who knows? With the benefit of this much hindsight and broad discussion though, I doubt it.
People forget that much of America's wealth wasn't built until much more recently than that.
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