Estelle Tang: I want to tell you about something that happened to me today.
I was walking to the gym when a guy on a bike rode past and said, "baby, can I smack that ass?" I am used to this kind of behaviour in my New York City neighbourhood, so I usually ignore it. Trust me – if I had it out with every man who said things like this to me, I’d have a much shorter, much more annoying day. So I just kept walking. He said it again, but before I could even decide what to do (or if I should do anything) about it, I felt his hand on my butt.
That’s right. He rode up to me on his bike so he could touch my arse. Then, again before I could think about doing anything, he rode away. (read more)
71 comments:
Guys who hassle women on the street are acting like fuckheads, and I've told them so on occasion, but those were guys I knew.
What else am I supposed to do, start a fistfight with a stranger?
Frankly, that crap only happens in the city. And when you think of it that way, women getting hassled is part of the much larger problem you get when you take a bunch of hairless apes and cram them shoulder-to-shoulder into a concrete jungle.
Couple thoughts:
Yeah -- this is crappy and in some cases, scary behavior.
What are the stats on violent crimes against women? What were they 50 - 75 years ago?
We raised two boys and two girls. Never would behavior like that have been tolerated if we heard about it. And if we observed or saw it "on TV" (!) it most likely wouldn't be seen as funny (context, context).
When the boundaries decay, this is what you get.
There obviously was "male entitlement" 50 - 75 years ago, -- but my guess is the violence was less, and certainly ass smacking was almost unheard of. (And yes there was "under reporting" but still -- think about it.)
So why is our culture / society so much coarser?
I saw some stats the other day that showed that violent crimes against men far exceed that of women. Not to undo her point, but -- who puts shoes out about male violence against males?
And notice that for all of the shooter's rage against women (misogyny), he murdered in cold blood (and in person -- stabbing is different than shooting) 4 men -- 3 of whom didn't look like PUAs to me.
He wasn't a misogynist -- he was a murderous sociopath.
She says she facebook's in ALL CAPS when she is angry like this. It won't make her feel better, but it will fulfill her need to express her frustration.
I think as women take over more and more of the public space, such as at universities and at professional positions at all levels in the big cities, then the opportunity for targeting them will only increase.
If she was walking with a decent guy, those attacks wouldn't have happened. But proportionally to the women, there seem fewer decent guys.
Decent guys, like Trooper for example, who already lives in the big city, should volunteer to escort these ladies. They would see what decent men are like, and Troop would be out there doing good deeds instead of hanging around his wife's shop fantasizing about bra fitting.
Two points:
The world is full of idiots (and psychos).
CCW, with a side order of martial arts.
(The Blonde (stacked like you know and a looker*) followed this formula successfully)
* Not bragging, just explaining why
Or hanging out by a fancy pool sun tanning or something. A Trooper mentoring program is what the world needs.
Trooper - come on now, cut it out.
What else am I supposed to do, start a fistfight with a stranger?
I'm with the Fruit Bat.
What the fuck am I spozed to do?
Bad shit happens in life. Education and hectoring doesn't necessarily stop bad shit from happening.
Welcome to reality. You'll be absolutely safe when you're dead.
My late wife, Myrna, was one of the few women I've met in 65 years who understood that the world outside our homes, particularly in the cities, is a jungle... and that that is a good and bad thing.
A perfectly safe world would be a perfectly boring world.
We are animal critters as well as intellectual and spiritual beings.
Fighting our way through the jungle is part of what this life is about. There are critters out there who do not wish us well, and some who want to kill and eat us.
Myrna was like me in that she sought out the fight in the jungle because it is exciting and it brings out the best in people.
If you want to walk the streets in the urban jungles, you've got to accept the bad with the good. If you won't, then live in the country or the small town. There a different kind of bad there, but maybe it's more to your taste.
The Bat is right. This is mostly a City thing. No man in his right mind would consider doing any such thing in these rural and suburban environments.
I've lived in the City. When I was young it wasn't at all unusual to be greeting by whistles and "cat calls" from the guys on the construction crews. So??? I just waved and smiled and took it as a compliment. I've been accosted and grabbed at in bars. So???? Drunk people. What are you going to do? You just take control of the situation and tell him to back off and move away. Hang with your girl friends or guy friends. There are always going to be jerks. Deal with it.
You learn that a city is a very very dangerous place and not to be alone in the wrong place at the wrong time, dressed in the "wrong" clothing or acting in a way that . Feminist will say I'm blaming the victim. Well....maybe I am. You don't purposely put yourself in danger. If you stood in front of a lion on the savannah holding raw meat in your hands, I would blame you for being killed by a lion. If you stand in front of a bulldozer in Israel where you can't be seen and then get squashed...yes. I blame you for being stupid.
Society IS much coarser. I blame the infiltration of progressive, liberal values and the decline and suppression of traditional, religious values. Poor parenting. Lenient parents raising children with no consequences. And MOSTLY exposure to media, films, music and music videos to instil the values that are absent elsewhere. Miley Cyrus is the result.
Err....editing error
Acting in a way that seems to be inviting.
I have sorta the same problem. When I ride my bike, the chicks run behind me and pinch my butt. Of course, I don't view this as something I want changed heh.
Dudes love beautiful girls. it's a timeless story.
Lolz @ 2:44 mark.
btw- I'm a little nervous about the up coming closing. (sold my dearly departed aunt's condo to the son of Alex Van Halen - really I mean it's true story) Alex Van Halen's son will be there- but what If Alex is there - at the closing? What should I say!?!?!
Back when, I knew a girl who used to pick her nose and pretend to eat it when she passed cat callers.
Dear Estelle,
I know you didn't want to paint all men with the same brush, but you did. So thanks for that.
May I make two suggestions? Here they are.
First, address your letter to the mothers of the men who have harassed you, and to mothers of boys in general. Some have failed you I still in their sons the need to respect women; the others still have time and should be reminded.
Second, carry an umbrella or a cane. An object run through the spokes of a moving bicycle will put you on equal ground with an aggressor. Or use your phone to photograph the men harassing you, then publish the photos. Whatever you do, be less passive that you're essay suggests you are being. Push back.
Regards,
Michael
you I still. should be "to instill"
When the ladies said they wanted equality with men, they seem to have wanted only the good stuff.
Men never expected absolute safety, and they don't whine a lot about its absence.
If you want equality in public spaces, accept the bad with the good. You're going to have to be tough and fight, just like we men have always done.
I can't handle whiney liberal women. I really can't.
It's New York and there are millions of people on a tiny island and some of them have bad manners. Get over it.
heh - Haz. I like the mother/guilt idea.
Who runs New York City anyway? Buncha progressive leftwing communists.
Ruby Giuliani made the place safe for a while and all high heel clicking Jessica Parker Sarah's could do was mock him. This is what you get, libs.
I guess I don't know what is more obnoxious, the poor girl who needs to swipe at all men for the bad manners of a few, or the classless guy who thinks he has a right to reach out and touch a complete stranger on the buttocks.
Perhaps, at the same counter where you buy your mini-Bloomberg approved soda, you can also purchase a bad manners buzzer. Zaps em right in the nuts, takes an NSA approved photo, & uploads to youtube and facebook with an auto-connect to the perps mother.
I never had a problem when I was walking on the street because I look like a cop. So most knuckleheads think twice.
I might be different now because I got old but so far so good.
Also I don't dream about bra fitting. I do it all the time.
Recently I was alone in the store and this girl was in and I said to her...."Hey sweetheat not for nothing but it is just us chickies here and I need to tell you sumptin and I hope I don't piss you off?" "Oh you won't piss me off go ahead." "You need to lift the girls up because they ain't doing you no favors like that there. Let me guess...You are a 42 H?" "My God how did you guess?" "Well I have been making it my business to study breasses since I was 12 years old and I have learned a thing or two."
She bought three bras.
Now that we are opening a lingerie shop I get to sell bloomers.
1. The guy was an amateur.
2. This may have been wishful thinking on the part of the lovely Ms. Tang. I speak from experience when I say that as a Chinese female, she does not have a bum, though there are exceptions. I shall do more research.
3. While I don't doubt that a young DBQ was hot to trot, I think we are owed photographic evidence. It would be a public service for the benefit of all mankind.
Dust Bunny Queen contributed this photo to my gallery of members of my blog. You make the call.
Um, the "upshot" is that she gets to belong to a gender whose prospects for attracting mates, attention, fame and wealth are much greater and simply dependent upon looking pretty in front of a camera for as long as she feels like doing it.
These complaints really get boring after a while. Seriously, in the grand trade-off of things, I think the better end of the bargain is the gender that gets to complain getting too much attention from THE WRONG people (oh no!) and in a sometimes impolite way, than the one that can only get it for appealing to the most subjective ideals of status, attaining it in often much more dangerous ways, and with the most successful among them now being the most "awkward" and therefore defeating the purpose.
Seriously, these complainers should fuck off. I understand complaining about not enough entitlement is just another strategy in the quest for more resources that you can pretend to channel toward offspring, that you may or may not have, and that you may or may not actually care about - all while complaining about how mired your pretend-rebellion against the beauty standard has become. But the trade-off is that you live longer, healthier and get more attention for it.
If you'd like to revoke that contract and somehow give more attention to males, paying attention to ways of making their lives longer, healthier and less stressful, and less dependent upon status and wealth, so as to recalibrate the balance more fairly, then let me know.
Until then, shove it up your twat.
I have to agree.
Chinese broads don't have enough junk in the trunk to make it worthwhile so her story is most likely a steaming pile of bullshit.
Also, the lady lumped in complaints about fondling, which is defined as assault in America. That goes too far. Rape, groping etc., are a tad further up the scale in inappropriateness and violation - rape obviously much more wrong than even groping. But when they lump in catcalls as somehow being even remotely close to either of those categories, it really does show you why women aren't trusted to greater positions of power. Catcalls might be annoying, at most. But cat-callers are a far cry from gropers, and a much further cry from rapists. I have no idea if the "mindset" is the same (talk about a subjective accusation!) but a woman who feigns helplessness over dealing with unappealing verbal banter really doesn't win any respect from me. Learning how to deal with people verbally is simply a part of life and if you can't figure out how to handle that then you really need to be placed into the protective bubble that allows you to show off what all but those whom you deem most "worthy" are simply supposed to appreciate silently.
Now if she complained that the town loafers came out of the saloon and cut off her pigtail like they did to Hop Sing in Bonanza then I might believe her.
On the other hand if this guy was illegally taped calling her nasty racial names and telling her not to bring Jackie Chan to the game then he would lose his NBA franchise.
You see how this works?
Yes, I see. ;-)
The same fricking Guardian paper that published that piece of crap then has a side-bar ad linking to this.
If you think people aren't already complaining about inappropriate on-line banter, think again.
Here's the issue, we're engaged in a war with a gender liberal enough to think that finding ways of attaining one-way appreciation is some sort of worthy goal.
It's all about increasing and channeling and controlling lust for one's own ends. The lust can't be ugly and the lust can't be rude, but the lust should be unreciprocated and, hopefully, even unappreciated. That's the way we build up to lengths that are untenable and get us to do what we want with it.
I'm telling you, if it weren't for the shot at a nice face and/or body to look at for a twenty year run or so, most women would go as unappreciated as most men are. And deservedly so! Most of them simply have characters that are at least as horrible (or at least worthless) if not moreso (as they can hide them underneath their appearances better) and worse, don't have any idea at all of what it means, socially, to come to terms with that!
Teenage girls understand this, but then they forget it and become a part of the game.
Some might posit that she needs to be slapped for spelling like a goddamned foreigner.
I would never do that, however.
And if you weren't convinced of what the alternative reaction leads to, get a load of this.
Not pretty.
young DBQ was hot to trot, I think we are owed photographic evidence.
Ha ha...Very funny Trooper
Here is one of me at 17. I'm the one in the back standing. It is part of a promo shoot for our musical duo 20 yrs...In SF in my hippie dippy days. Just a leeetle bit stoned. So was the photographer from the potato quality of the picture ....and 30yrs old long after leaving SF and moving to the country.
Hat pins for self-defense.
Journalism ain't what it used to be... but the perils of women who venture into the city apparently is what it used to be.
"hat pins are our only means of self defense"
"wearing swords in public"
If I were still living in a city and young enough to worry about being accosted, I would probably carry one of those cute little tasers that women can fit into a pocket or have on a key chain.
Haz's idea is pretty good too.
So Jamie Peck's bosses "offered her a sizable bonus" to walk around Central Park topless.
An she's OK with that, because it was to test a law?
What I want to know is: Is her name really "Peck"?
And, why are there plural "bosses"? It sounds like it was a donation cup passed around the company cafeteria to get Jamie to take her shirt off. Probably because Jamie's been doing that for lunch money since she was in middle school.
"It's already settled you're a whore, girl, now were just haggling over the price."
Hubba hubba DBQ. That's clean country living.
Thx DBQ. Very sporting of you. Cute too.
I don't believe a single word of it.
The thing is... Melbourne is in *Australia* and I have never ever ever in my life heard anyone EVER refer to Australia as a place where men avoid crass jokes or public appreciation of women.
This isn’t some screed by the privileged female that lives in R&B’s mind, demanding yet more privilege or special treatment. She’s scared, and the butt-grabbing incident magnified the fear she just about always feels when she’s out on the street. And she states her main reason for writing the piece is to ask that guys become just a bit more aware of that fear she and other young women have to live with all the time.
Lydia, I agree that the incident would have freaked me out completely. It doesn't seem like a big deal but it's a violation... like having your apartment broken into when you're not there... logic need not apply; you feel unsafe and violated.
I do think that a lot of guys don't understand what it is to live with vulnerability, but some do. It's not only a male/female thing.
And some women seem completely oblivious and you'd think they don't have the common sense God gave a rabbit.
Does she have a trigger warning? Poor precious snowflake.
I agree about some women being oblivious, but this writer doesn't seem to be one of them. And she also goes out of her way to say she knows there are lots of good men out there.
As for the picture, all I can say is the plumber needs to change his name to Genius!
Oh no!
I'll remind myself to not grab anonymous ass anymore Lydia. Because, you know, my inner rapist and my inner anonymous ass grabber (not that they exist) is feared.
It's feared as much as my inner blue collar catcaller (not that that exists, either - but still. Someone must be blamed. Someone's "consciousness" must be raised. Some innocuous activity must criminalized).
It's funny how the prudish, supposed aficionados of "chivalry" turn all liberal Leftist Dudley Do-Rights when paranoia of the pathologized male (in the guise of awkward advances) rears its head.
There's no difference between the War on Catcalling and Political Correctness.
Let's just criminalize awkwardness in its entirety. Which would surely put the writer of the article in prison as well - but at least that would be a neutral and enforceable standard.
And she also goes out of her way to say she knows there are lots of good men out there.
Fresh allies to recruit in her War on Awkwardness and the War on Blue-Collar Catcalling!
I do think that a lot of guys don't understand what it is to live with vulnerability, but some do.
Oh. You mean like, as a young male, when you can't walk alone on a college campus at night without crossing paths of another stupid coed giving you the scared look of someone fearing being raped by an anonymous male moreso than the rowdy frat-boy at the party her sorority sisters got her to go with them to and hook up with?
Most rape is not anonymous.
Most ass-grabbing "assaults", obviously, are.
And most catcalling is nothing but a way for awkward construction workers who can't afford the hookers the white collar males can, pointing out that a stuck-up "sophisticate" uses a nice appearance to pretend that the attention she wants to fester silently is so much scarier once released from the mean mouths of the unworthy.
I think she is over reacting in some respects. However, if you are just walking down the street, minding your own business, you sure don't expect to be groped or grabbed. You might expect those things if you put yourself into a situation, like hanging out in a bar or getting all gooned up at a party. That is different. Not OK but different and somewhat expected. Cat calling is harmless as long as the guys keep their space. Take it as a compliment young girls, cuz when you get older....it's not gonna happen as much, if at all. Grabbing at you or touching you is an assault not just on your person, but also on your mind.
You can cave in and be afraid and let your fear cripple your life. Or, you can do something about it. Even if that something is to walk with a friend. Carry a taser. Get a CC permit and learn how to use a gun.
The guys that would do such a strange thing as to grab ass with a complete stranger are not likely to be swayed by her writings. Her guy friends are likely those who were raised with manners and taught to respect all other people's spaces. So she is preaching to the choir.
It also isn't as if guys don't feel fear or uncomfortable when walking alone. It is a different kind of danger that they face, but fearful and dangerous and wariness just the same. Women shouldn't think that THEY are the only ones who have challenges.
Learn to be aware of your surroundings and act in a prudent manner. Pretend you are in the jungle.....because...YOU ARE.
And most catcalling is nothing but a way for awkward construction workers who can't afford the hookers the white collar males can, pointing out that a stuck-up "sophisticate" uses a nice appearance to pretend that the attention she wants to fester silently is so much scarier once released from the mean mouths of the unworthy.
That's one way to look at it I suppose.
As I already indicated, I took it as a compliment. Smiled, waved and continued on my way. As long as there is a distance kept, not approaching you or blocking your path, it is just harmless appreciation. Why not take it in a spirit of fun and make everyone happy? The guys who gave the compliment feel pretty good about being acknowledged and you should take it as a harmless boost to your own ego. Thanks!!
It's just a part of life in the City.
As I already indicated, I took it as a compliment. Smiled, waved and continued on my way.
Because you are logical. There are other ways of responding, even more combative or arrogant than that, but you seem to at least understand that verbalizing is not a violation. The First Amendment does not need to be modified to specify its application to only non-sexual or non-flirty speech.
As long as there is a distance kept, not approaching you or blocking your path, it is just harmless appreciation. Why not take it in a spirit of fun and make everyone happy? The guys who gave the compliment feel pretty good about being acknowledged and you should take it as a harmless boost to your own ego. Thanks!!
Again, you are being logical. But most women (as with most men) plug into something more primal when it comes to interactions as base as this. For the male, its his awkwardness at not having ways of impressing her that his higher-status males do have. For the woman, it's about reinforcing his unworthiness in a way that a letter to the editor allows for, but her own immediate reaction doesn't.
We live in a society that aspires to value freedom and the equality of rights that foster such freedom, but obviously human sexual dynamics still require woman to reinforce the idea that "some" men are "better" and therefore, not only more worthy of mating with her, but more worthy of expressing her worthiness of being mated with. The idea that men other than the man she's selected could have appreciative thoughts (or even fantasies, God forbid sexualized in any way) about her, she must find disgusting, lest she disrupt the social pecking hierarchy that recognizes sexuality as a privileged domain not only in terms of her own personal relationships, but socially.
Catcalls, to me, seems like an entirely different thing than actually touching someone.
Also, after thinking about it, in high school the guys absolutely groped and got away with it... to the extent that you weren't fast enough to claw their arm or break their shin with a wooden shoe. I did both.
The guy on the bike deserved an umbrella in the spokes... but to do that you'd have to be expecting him to deserve it or you'd not get his spokes before he was gone.
Catcalls, to me, seems like an entirely different thing than actually touching someone.
To me, too. And to the law. One's assault the other's speech. Women do a disservice to themselves with articles like those written by the "lumper", so eager to to find a social war against them that's somehow greater than the social war of hierarchy that males fight with each other or that females fight with each other.
And lol. That's a crazy story about the shoe.
In fairness this poor girl has been groped in every single place she ever went.
Even Sesame Street.
She just has bad luck.
Estelle Tang said ...
It’s so predictably a part of my life now that I cringe in anticipation whenever a man looks at me.
I agree with DBQ...some over reacting here perhaps? Men look at women, and vice versa...how is that bad per se? Has she been physically grouped every time, 90% of the time, once, ever? Or is it in her imagination?
Then she says...
I internally genuinely bless every man who turns his face away from me when I walk past
That is just weird. Just a little too special. Something odd in those words...I've lived and worked in some pretty locales and the intensity of male aggression she relates is something I have never seen on any scale but very small.
I pass women all the time, fat ones, skinny ones, knock your socks off gorgeous ones, what ever and I always look in to the face as we pass and smile. Just a smile...even say something innocuous and nice if we make eye contact.
I posted somewhere (I'm old, don't remember so well these daze ;) about meeting a beautiful young woman at a check out line...she had a small Treble Clef tattoo on her right forearm...so I asked what is that about? The huge giant beaming smile that responded was worth the whole day...she was a musician, flute (foremost), piano and guitar and was delighted I noticed something so small. We joked about the early days of learning an instrument, me on the piano making my instructors livid because I wanted to play Ahmad Jamal arrangements and pieces, and some Jerry Lee Lewis, and they wanted Hayden and Bach. Dang! She recalled her drills with the masters on both flute and piano...where we both thought if we had to play one more scale we'd slit our own throats. I wished her well and went on my way...no time was wasted because she scanned me out as we spoke. But... she was so pretty that if I was 40+ years younger I'd have hung around like white on rice...haven't seen a beaming smile like that in a long time, other than from my better half.
My point: Men and women can like each other, even just in passing, and brighten each other's day, and not looking would be a shame.
Correction: I've lived and worked in some pretty locales...
Should be: I've lived and worked in some pretty tough locales ....
Grabbing a girls butt while both of you are riding bikes? Seems rather difficult.
Probably won't happen again. Too hard to pull off.
Honestly, I get tired of hearing these, "waah, waah, someone harassed me" complaints by some Princess. So which is it? I am woman hear me roar? Or please help me, I'm just a girl?
We can let Women in Combat and tote M-16s, Cause they're tough.
But we still need post rules against sexual harassment in the rifle squad. We wouldn't want our girl soldiers to feel uncomfortable.
So which is it? I am woman hear me roar? Or please help me, I'm just a girl?
It's whichever one furthers her position in the Gender Warz.
Listen, technically speaking, anonymous ass-grabbing and tittie touching is an assault. Technically speaking. A guy doing it is probably getting off on the anonymity with which he can do it as much as the woman dressing provocatively gets off on the anonymous attention that she can inspire. That's entirely the point: It's generalizable enough so that she can internalize her "sexiness" and not worry about the status of who's actually validating it.
But let's get a grip (no pun intended). It shouldn't be hard to agree to keep one's hands off each other in public, anonymous settings but without getting to the point of criminalizing kindergartners pulling each other's hair.
Synova said...
The thing is... Melbourne is in *Australia* and I have never ever ever in my life heard anyone EVER refer to Australia as a place where men avoid crass jokes or public appreciation of women.
This is an interesting misconception. Australian men tend to be pretty sympathetic to feminist causes, more so than both european and US men. Think Hugh Jackman, masculine yet sings show tunes, and in real life is married to an older woman not a bimbette.
"I have never ever ever in my life heard anyone EVER refer to Australia as a place where men avoid crass jokes or public appreciation of women."
I've only ever been in Australia long enough to change airplanes, but my first college roommate was an ex-Navy guy stationed at Yokosuka. He claimed that Australian men were interested in beer, football, fighting, and women (in that order) and thus US Navy seamen always appreciated the time spent in Australian ports.
Without getting all Crocodile Dundee on everyone, it seems Australia's a place with an incredibly extensive and rugged, harsh environment - er, "OUTBACK!". So the idea that they'd be sexually insecure and genteel as the American fashion sounds maddeningly ludicrous.
That said, of course someone can appreciate an older woman's wisdom or professional talents, or the social problems faced by women, and not be a sexual Victorian. However, the recent problems faced (or perceived) by Julia Gillard suggest otherwise.
In any event, it just goes to show how sexually schizophrenic America is. If other developed countries are less puritanical in discussing and pursuing sex, and report less problems in the area of harassment, then perhaps growing up and being less puritanical and more open is a good thing for both women and men.
Rhythm and Balls said...
That said, of course someone can appreciate an older woman's wisdom or professional talents, or the social problems faced by women, and not be a sexual Victorian. However, the recent problems faced (or perceived) by Julia Gillard suggest otherwise.
Gillard was a polarizing figure within her own party because she replaced a popular Prime Minister (Kevin Rudd) of her own party with a mini-coup. He was apparently a nightmare to work with but he was replaced so quickly after he finally brought Labor back to power after a long period in the wilderness that it looked bad for her right from the start. He retained considerable loyalty with both the voters and a faction of the parliament. This being said, she was subject to some sexist sledging. The press is antediluvian in Australia. Murdoch is a relative sophisticate compared to most of the Australian press.
Look, let me be more concise:
I call Bullshit on this entire article and the author. Period. She asserts...
... I cringe in anticipation whenever a man looks at me ... I internally genuinely bless every man who turns his face away from me when I walk past
Really? You want a community that passes each other in the street without sop much as eye meeting eye?
Ms Tang, you are full of shit and writing for your own aggrandizement alone. Grow the fuck up.
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