Cut out the middleman...
Moscow police have once again entered the dark realms of the paranormal, busting a Russian "psychic" ring that has been lifting curses for money — or, as the police claim, simply scaring clients into thinking they were jinxed.
The psychics also promoted their company through shows on cable television such as Komsomolskaya Pravda TV.Sapphira staff convinced callers they were cursed and claimed to be performing "magical" rituals during their phone conversations. The staff convinced their potential clients they needed supernatural help, which the center then provided for payment, the report said.
Six alleged psychics now face up to 10 years in prison on fraud charges, the report said. It did not release the suspects' names, only the old-style aliases they used — Alexy of Siberia and Grigory — and said the two founders were natives of St. Petersburg and Kazakhstan.
Moscow Times via The Macho Response
...and ask 8 Ball online.
63 comments:
My guess is Mr. Emcee has a few things to say about the project to save souls from eternal damnation.
I was walking past the living room the other day and I stopped and asked the kid... "Is that an animal psychic show? You're not allowed to watch those you know."
Well, it WAS an animal psychic show, I was told, but they weren't watching it they just hadn't gotten the TV turned off yet.
I once had a chiropractor tell me he could cure my allergies and make me an inch or two taller.
Hey, at least those aren't make believe diseases.
It would be nice if our government started prosecuting "psychics" for fraud.
It would be nice if our government started prosecuting "psychics" for fraud.
Yeah, cuz the government needs more shit to regulate.
Revenant said...
It would be nice if our government started prosecuting "psychics" for fraud.
The government is let by politicians peddling fraudulent fixes for fraudulent problems. If they go after the psychics, it would only be because they don't like the competition.
Yeah, cuz the government needs more shit to regulate.
But they'd be doing it for our own good. And think of the children!
If you're stupid enough to fall for it, you deserve to get fleeced
Kinda like Obama......unfortunately, the rest of us don't deserve it.
Revenant, Both my bride and myself have worked criminal and civil litigation involving Gypsy psychic fraud. My bride is currently researching a book on that very topic. One of the cases my bride worked was a Gypsy who conned a fairly intelligent woman[IQ anyway] out of hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to find her lost cat, and a soul mate. It was prosecuted in Federal Court and the Gypsy served time.
Jason, I agreed w/ that philosophy until I saw just how con men/women prey on vulnerable people.
Dionne Warwicke hardest hit.
Nd, I know they do, but at what point in your life do you believe that a "psychic" can find your lost cat? There's a breakdown in the thought process somewhere. Am I superstitious? Yeah, at times. Hell, I have a pair of lucky underwear I put on if I want something to go my way. It's a bit of a joke, but I wear them just the same. But do I believe they are lucky because the person who sold them to me said they were lucky? Not a chance. I'm foolish enough to believe my own nonsense, but not someone else's. Kinda strange, but that's how it is.
Synova, I've seen a couple minutes of the pet psychic and the human psychics who'connect' with the dead. So sad and stupid. And my kids back then would not have been allowed, either :)
Jason, I'm a libertarian so when I say people should be prosecuted for something I don't do so cavalierly. I agree stupidity is part of the equation and we can't be protecting stupid people from harm. It's impossible. But, if you saw how these cons work, and if you see the type folks they victimize, you may have a different take on it. Maybe not, and I respect that. I'm just saying I am no fucking bleeding heart and I thought the same as you. Until, I saw how they work.
I'm always shocked when I find out that seemingly rational people believe in ghosts. Often these are the same people who are "too smart" to believe in religion.
The thing is that our brains are *designed* to make stuff up.
If you're stupid enough to fall for it, you deserve to get fleeced...
That may sound callous. However...
(I realize what I'm about to say is against the rules of proper discourse or logic. The way I look at it is that I'm attempting a steal, as you shall see, if you keep reading)
In baseball, (what did I tell you?) you are allowed to "steal" a base, as long as you get to the base you are attempting to steal, before the ball in control of the team playing defense, catches you, by means of a "tag", off the base you have hit or walked you way onto.
In other words, you have to work, for the theft, or, better yet, have the ability to "steal" it.
The theft is the recognition of the value of an ability. In this case running, which if not allowed for, or accounted for, would wither and not contribute to the expansion of more possibilities.
Synova, Do you believe there is more than we know regarding our world that transcends our senses and current intellect?
If you're stupid enough to fall for it, you deserve to get fleeced...
BTW.. I should add that before the base theft is attempted, a cat and mouse game between the prospective thieve and the pitcher most times take place. There is also a rule that seems to favor the prospective thieve that says the pitcher is not allowed to deceive the runner.
That's how much value the display of the ability to run fast can alter hard fixed ideas of propriety and justice.
Yes, I'm talking about a game, not real life. Moscow is real life. My answer is, we are not at top.
I know there is a connection between the two. I also know not to claim I know for sure. I'll say there is a strong probability that there is a connection.
The way the infield fly rule was found to apply here. One of my favorite top posts btw.
I know my previous comment sounded harsh. I don't like to sound harsh, but there is a point I believe that basic common sense has to be the rule. I know that there are people in the media that act like they can decifer the unknown. I know there are people that proclaim they can stop the seas from rising, save the earth and it's people...blah blah blah...I list them all as the same type..charlatains. Tell you what you want to hear and prey on your fears and pocketbook. I'm not all knowing, but I know bunk when I hear it.
Oh, and by the way Lem, although I have much respect for the history and tradition of the Red Sox, just keep the KC Royals in mind, we could surprise everyone. Not counting on it, but after years of piss poor management I would dearly love it if my Royals could at least finish over .500 this year and hopefully much much better.
I always sew up my pockets around Roma. That's if I can tell they're Roma. Sometimes they're Puerto Ricans, in which case I put on my Tito Puente Borinqueno hat and DANCE.
Yeah, cuz the government needs more shit to regulate.
I'm not talking about regulation. I'm not even talking about new laws.
Psychics claim to be able to do something they objectively cannot. They take money for doing it, then lie and say they did it. That's plain and simple, good-old-fashioned, English-common-law *fraud*.
It is among the few things the government is supposed to be stamping out.
Jason Terry, I lived in KC from 1975-82 and would go to 40-50 Royals games a year. You know...when they were good. Went to the refurbed stadium 2 years ago. They did a good job. The Royals being only 7 games out gives them a shot, longshot but w/ 2 wildcards it's not inconceivable. As you know, the city is a Chief's town. But not in the hay days of the late 70's-mid 80's. We lived @ 44th and Fairmount. All our friends have moved out to Johnson County so that's mostly where we hang when we visit.
If you're stupid enough to fall for it, you deserve to get fleeced
Is "this person can speak with the dead" actually a dumber belief than "a virgin once gave birth to the son of God"?
A large majority of Americans have beliefs about the supernatural that, to a non-believer, are extremely silly. That doesn't make them idiots, it just makes them humans.
I'm surprised the psychics didn't see this coming. Probably just hung over that day.
Nd, I live in swmo now but was born in KC and I remember the years you speak of....long time ago. Can only hope for the best.
And Freeman, my understanding is that you live in NW Ark. I graduated from U of A. Fayetteville in '89 and still spent a lot of time there on business throughout the '90's into mid 2000's. Wonderful place. I absolutely adore it. Nothing like walking up on the hill for classes. Course, it's changed a lot since then I'm sure. I'll have to make a trip down soon just to check it out. I saw NW Ark. grow and grow. It was really amazing how much it took off through that time.
Aw Rev, don't be like that. Like my lucky underpants, Jesus has never done me wrong! (Yeah, I know it's in bad taste, but I've been accused of that before.)
Hey Nd, give me some background...what kind of person gets taken in by a psychic? With all the info and internet I would think it would be harder and harder to ply your trade if a con man. Does the average mark not use the internet or just not have any "street savy" per se? I don't want to ridicule anyone, but I am truly interested if there is a common thread.
Do you believe there is more than we know regarding our world that transcends our senses and current intellect?
This is why I won't say I don't believe in ghosts.
The world is a weird and mysterious place.
Is "this person can speak with the dead" actually a dumber belief than "a virgin once gave birth to the son of God"?
*******
Revenant you know that isn't a balanced equation. ;-)
Surprised you didn't catch more with that bait though...
ha!
It would be nice if our government started prosecuting "psychics" for fraud.
CEO-MMP,
Yeah, cuz the government needs more shit to regulate.
Icepick,
But they'd be doing it for our own good. And think of the children!
Jason Terry,
If you're stupid enough to fall for it, you deserve to get fleeced
All nonsense, if you ask me:
Fraud is a crime on the books that's merely not being enforced,...
ndspinelli,
Jason, I'm a libertarian so when I say people should be prosecuted for something I don't do so cavalierly. I agree stupidity is part of the equation and we can't be protecting stupid people from harm. It's impossible. But, if you saw how these cons work, and if you see the type folks they victimize, you may have a different take on it. Maybe not, and I respect that. I'm just saying I am no fucking bleeding heart and I thought the same as you. Until, I saw how they work.
And tell them about the damage (financial/emotional, etc.) they leave behind for the mark's (now impoverished?) family to clean up,...
Jason Terry,
Hey Nd, give me some background...what kind of person gets taken in by a psychic? With all the info and internet I would think it would be harder and harder to ply your trade if a con man. Does the average mark not use the internet or just not have any "street savy" per se? I don't want to ridicule anyone, but I am truly interested if there is a common thread.
Not really - smart, stupid, all kinds. Like all suckers, they're either long-term or momentary idealists of one kind or another. Mostly spiritualists.
BTW - you can read all about these issues (AND MORE!) at The Macho Response:
That's T-H-E,....
Synova,
I was walking past the living room the other day and I stopped and asked the kid... "Is that an animal psychic show? You're not allowed to watch those you know."
Where were you when I was in my 20s?
To prosecute for fraud, wouldn't you have to find a victim from whom the psychic claimed to have removed a curse, but who was in fact still under the curse?
I've got a friend with psychic abilities. I've sat and talked with her and had her tell me things there's no possible way she could know. Like how my father's uncle's first wife killed herself by sticking a can of insect spray in her mouth.
Or just recently, when I told her my mother had taken a tumble and hurt her leg, she immediately said "right ankle. you need to make her go for x rays, it's broken in at least two places"...and it's broken in 3 (all three bones are busted).
Now...sure, she had a 50% shot on which leg...but not on something x rays would confirm or deny.
Not all psychics are frauds.
To prosecute for fraud, wouldn't you have to find a victim from whom the psychic claimed to have removed a curse, but who was in fact still under the curse?
Is "this person can speak with the dead" actually a dumber belief than "a virgin once gave birth to the son of God"?
Hey now! The resurrection of Christ makes perfect sense once you get past the Starship Enterprise and the transporter beam!
The Prime Directive be DAMNED!!!!!!!!
"Synova, Do you believe there is more than we know regarding our world that transcends our senses and current intellect?"
I'm a "no further Revelations, the Bible is complete" "Scooby-do Classic" rationalist... or something like that.
The thing about something that transcends our senses and intellect is that people then decide that they can trust their senses and intellect. That, in itself, is irrational.
If nothing else, traditional Christianity gives people the message loud and clear that the devil is the father of lies and that forces are out there at all times waiting to draw us astray at the slightest sign of weakness. Also, Paul (think it was Paul) cast out the demon and cured the fortune teller of her ability and so ruined her value to her owner. Luther, when confronted by an angel, determined that since the "angel" was attempting to distract him from translating the Bible that his senses were lying to him and said "Get behind me, Satan" or some such.
Traditional Christianity has a good strong History of resisting sense-based truth and resisting all of those little gods and superstitions that live on the edges and in nature in most cultures.
Still, bottom line, our senses and our intellect lie.
Anything other than that... if there is truth beyond our senses and intellect, we're not going to find it by listening to a liar.
How could we?
CEO-MMP,
Not all psychics are frauds.
Yes they are. All you've described is a skill/trick called "cold reading".
Decent people get fleeced by grifters, huckster and frauds every day of the week. Some of them are supposed be these really smart academics but they get taken to the cleaners. You know. Like college professors and stuff.
In fact they are just rubes and marks for the devious.
It happens right before your eyes.
"Yes they are. All you've described is a skill/trick called "cold reading"."
Which a person might not necessarily realize that they've done when they do it. I know that I notice a whole lot of things subconsciously and have come up with stuff that I have to say, "No, I have no idea how I knew that."
So I do pay attention to "feelings" and "hunches" and those things that I can't quite put my finger on. I don't have to know what I noticed or know why something bugs me, only that it does. The subconscious is useful that way. Our brains are designed to make stuff up out of the barest hints. No one *thinks* about catching a ball either.
What it isn't is supernatural.
Synova,
"Yes they are. All you've described is a skill/trick called "cold reading"."
Which a person might not necessarily realize that they've done when they do it.
Exactly - and isn't that a lousy basis for a friendship?
I know that I notice a whole lot of things subconsciously and have come up with stuff that I have to say, "No, I have no idea how I knew that."
You're conscious, but your senses work at lightening speed. These are evolutionary processes you've already outrun.
So I do pay attention to "feelings" and "hunches" and those things that I can't quite put my finger on.
I pay attention to everything, but I've trained my feelings not to overwhelm my brain when in danger.
I don't have to know what I noticed or know why something bugs me, only that it does.
Something's askew. That's enough.
The subconscious is useful that way.
If I leave you with nothing else, it's really you actually noticing things but processing it faster than you have to think about it.
Our brains are designed to make stuff up out of the barest hints.No one *thinks* about catching a ball either.
Right - the idea is conjured, passes through your mind, to move your muscles in synchronicity with your eyes - and it can happen faster than you have time to think about it all. Like if the ball came through your periffial (sp?) view and you just react.
What it isn't is supernatural.
Nothing is, nothing was, and nothing will ever be.
This is it, kids, and it could be a LOT of fun if we just stopped bullshitting about it,...
Sometimes they're Puerto Ricans, in which case I put on my Tito Puente Borinqueno hat and DANCE.
Fuckin' A, Bubba!
Hey Nd, give me some background...what kind of person gets taken in by a psychic?
The people that go to psychic readers WANT to believe, and they WANT to be "fleeced". (I'm assuming a straightforward transaction of a certain amount of cash for a reading, not someone having their bank accounts drained.) As such it is just the same as someone giving voice lessons to a person who can't carry a tune, and things of that nature.
If we're going to prosecute psychics for such stuff, where does it end? Are we going to prosecute the Catholic Church for not actually being able to prove that people going to confession end up in Heaven? I mean, those people tithe like ... uh ... people who tithe - or go to psychics once a month for a reading.
BTW - you can read all about these issues (AND MORE!) at The Macho Response:
Four out of five dentists claim that reading The Macho Response won't do a damned thing for your teeth. The fifth dentist will get back to us after having his palm read.
I'm a "no further Revelations, the Bible is complete" "Scooby-do Classic" rationalist... or something like that.
The original "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You!" was the anti-X-Files: Everything had a rational explanation! But Daphne was no where near has hot as Gillian Anderson.
But, I also agree entirely with Synova's 7:58.
The people that go to psychic readers WANT to believe, and they WANT to be "fleeced".
The first half of that sentence contradicts the second half. If they want it to be true, they don't want to pay for a lie.
Icepick,
The people that go to psychic readers WANT to believe, and they WANT to be "fleeced". (I'm assuming a straightforward transaction of a certain amount of cash for a reading, not someone having their bank accounts drained.)
So far so good,...
As such it is just the same as someone giving voice lessons to a person who can't carry a tune, and things of that nature.
Dude, you are so naive. These people are destroying lives as a matter of habit. Yes, people go to them to hear things, and they sure do tell them, damn the consequences. Your missing child is dead. Of course it's O.K. you lied to your best friend, because it happened on a Thursday, and my Guide said that would be a bad day for her. And you must leave your wife and kids immediately because you're an unrecognized god and your true destiny is free with your new love. Take this water to cure your cancer, it readjusts your vibrational level to a healing frequency.
"The same as someone giving voice lessons to a person who can't carry a tune"?
Only if they can destroy music in the doing,...
There is a huge difference between getting a feeling or tingle that something has happened or will happen and sitting across from someone who is telling you they can locate your cat for money because they're psychic
Jason Terry,
There is a huge difference between getting a feeling or tingle that something has happened or will happen and sitting across from someone who is telling you they can locate your cat for money because they're psychic
Tingles are left over survival shit from the jungle. Psychics are liars and scum. Total bottom dwellers,...
Jason Terry, One would think that w/ all the information available on the internet and elsewhere that people would not be vulnerable to psychics. Or, smoke cigarettes, crack, crystal meth. Or, drive w/o a seat belt fastened, keep loaded guns unsecured w/ kids in the house, I could go on but you get my drift.
The folks who get conned are vulnerable. Old people get conned, they're #1 on the list..lonely, frightened, and many have dough. Desperate people get conned, a recent death of a loved one, a chronic illness seeking a cure are a couple of profiles high on the list. But, as I stated earlier, even the loss of a fucking cat can cause a woman w/ a college education to get conned out of six figures. I know, it sounds nuts, and on many levels it is. Emotions are not rational. Spock would never get conned. However, it's what makes life interesting to me anyway. Fat people get conned. They're lonely and yearn for love and just human contact. Greedy people get conned. They think they're going to get some easy money and their banks accounts get cleaned out. I have little empathy for them.
Those are some of the more common victims. But, victims come in all sectors of our culture.
Crack & Synova, agree with you on "cold reading."
Here's Orson Welles talking about "cold reading" and the related phenomenon-- occupational disease-- becoming a "shut eye."
Desperate people get conned, a recent death of a loved one, a chronic illness seeking a cure are a couple of profiles high on the list.
I just wrote about that situation a few days ago - the title?
This Is How They Get You
Penn Jillette and cold reading.
For every person who knows what they're doing and why it works, how many have no idea? Jillette talks about how this shows we don't *listen*. Having empathy is a good thing. A friend who can pick up on all those clues might not be lying to you, but it doesn't mean they have a supernatural power.
I found it interesting that both Orson Welles and Jillette made a big deal about how immoral the whole process of lying to people felt and how in either of their experiments, for Welles and Jillette's girlfriend, that they fessed up to every single person afterward. Jillette says his girlfriend was still messed up for six weeks afterward.
The first half of that sentence contradicts the second half. If they want it to be true, they don't want to pay for a lie.
No it doesn't. I put fleeced in quotes to indicate a different meaning. People are buying comfort, or think they are. If they get what they're paying for, they're not getting cheated, even though the psychics are scamming them. I don't see much difference in that versus going to a psychologist. It's all witchcraft after a fashion, and all equally worthless or worthwhile according to the individual.
Synova,
I found it interesting that both Orson Welles and Jillette made a big deal about how immoral the whole process of lying to people felt and how in either of their experiments, for Welles and Jillette's girlfriend, that they fessed up to every single person afterward.
After my experiences, I loathe the soft betrayals I see people carry out nowadays.
It just starts to get to you,...
Icepick,
They're not getting cheated, even though the psychics are scamming them.
I can see Icepick has elected himself the entertainment for the evening.
Logic Tricks, ladies and gentlemen. Defending the indefensible.
Please, Ice, carry on,...
Icepick,
I don't see much difference in that versus going to a psychologist. It's all witchcraft after a fashion, and all equally worthless or worthwhile according to the individual.
I hear this a lot. Like when NewAgers point out everyone "Big Pharma" kills, trying to sell "alternative" medicine. They always leave out the important stuff:
Witch doctors and psychics don't go to college, or medical school, or have training, or even keep records of success rates and the many deaths THEY cause.
They've just got pretty stories about how good they and their useless potions are.
Come on, Ice, you ain't stupid:
There's a difference,...
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