Sunday, March 6, 2016

Overheard At Lem's

I thought this was quite astute and worth frontpaging:

Dust Bunny Queen wrote:
Cross posting from an older thread where I am trying to explain to R & B why this Trump is Hilter meme is going to totally backfire. Why Trump is doing what he is doing, with this optical event of hands raised and how it helps him to have the media etc attacking him on this.

Sorry for the spamming of the threads....here below.

"Psychology matters"
@ R&B

Of course it does. I see the techniques that Trump is using as opposed to the manufactured robots that the parties (Dem and Rep) churn out. Having been in sales most of my life and having had extensive training in how to "sell" to people, I am familiar with Trump's techniques and have used those myself, often, and as such...they don't work on me or anyone who is aware. There isn't necessarily anything evil or Hilterish in it as far as I can see with Trump. This isn't to say that those techniques are not subject to being perverted to evil control. I just don't see that as yet happening and to have the media and others JUMP to that conclusion is just as bad as if it really were happening.

The main difference that I observe in Trump's campaign speeches as compared to the others is that Trump encourages audience participation. Asking questions directly of the audience. Getting them to respond both verbally and physically by raising their hands or clapping. He gets them to feel a part of the process. They get to feel that they are in control and not just passive receptacles. This is opposed to Cruz's technique which has been noted to be preachy, lecturing. Cruz's groups are supposed to listen and receive the wisdom from on high. Passive and receiving.

This photo op, where his audience has raised their hands is another way for him to get his audience to "bond" or feel commonality with him. When the media and the pearl clutching commentators immediately spring to the meme Hands raised = Hilter = Nazi supporters, the audience now feels personally attacked....yet again. The media already calls them rubes, rednecks, ignorant, racist and all sorts of other things. SO....to be attacked now as Nazis because of a photo taken where they were merely raising their hands is only going to cement their feelings.

Their take on it is I am NOT a Nazi or a racist and the more you tell me things about myself that are NOT true (in their opinion) the more I will hate you and cling to my own beliefs and my candidate. In other words, attacking the audience (unfairly to their minds) is a counter productive technique and will boomerang on the GOPe, the media and THIS is what is dangerous.

The GOPe has dissed and kicked these people to the curb and here it is again...or so they feel. The GOPe has turned its own base into powerless outsiders. Trump makes them feel like insiders and like they have some control.

Crowd control, speaking to large groups to persuade....all things that I am quite familiar with and have been trained to do as has Trump. Not that I am comparing myself to Trump, but rather to the training and techniques it takes to be successful in selling.

I'm not disagreeing with you (Ritmo) but rather trying to explain why it works and why it doesn't work to attack either the messenger or his audience.

39 comments:

bagoh20 said...

The people at a Trump rally are not in play.

bagoh20 said...

"I don't know how (Hillary) won. ... Nobody I know voted for (her)."

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

It a well known technique at evangelical gatherings. Very likely unfamiliar to ivy league media.

ricpic said...

"The people at a Trump rally are not in play,"

Really? Then why is the Establishment having a nervous breakdown over Trump? If his rallies were attracting a thousand instead of thirty thousand he'd be a big ho-hum to TPTB. It's not Trump's "crazy" pronouncements, it's the overwhelming response to them by "the people" that is giving the Establishment night sweats.

Chip Ahoy said...

I'm thinking about something else right now and cannot involve myself in anyone's caucusing efforts. For I am a loof.

Anticipating death. It is macabre, if also efficient, to anticipate death and have elaborately detailed biographies prepared for famous people. So they're sprung the moment of their death. Over prepared. Under shocked.

We knew she was going to die.

So did we, you macabre fucks! I meant to say, "thank you for your fine job done. Most efficient. Disinterested prepared journalism, right there. Good work."

ricpic said...

The most interesting thing I find about DBQ's comment is that she makes a significant effort to reason with Schmendrik and what does he do?....answer by calling Trump supporters the equivalent of Nazis in the docket at Nuremberg. Please, we're way past the point at which any effort should be made to reason with totalitarian vermin. You defeat them. Period.

bagoh20 said...

ricpic, I say they are not in play because they are already Trumpers, so whether or not it backfires with them is irrelevant. Trump needs to attract the people outside that tent. People who don't attend rallies get a vote too.

edutcher said...

ric makes the point.

Rit has no interest in interacting with anybody, he only cones here to snark.

DBQ's point about the pic, I think, is also right. People have seen too many of these smear jobs and the pic shows a lot of the people with their hands in the vertical, not at any angle.

The Internet has become the place where such lies are debunked, so the odds of this working are slim.

bagoh20 said...

The people at a Trump rally are not in play

I'd swear I've read you say often how the Trump supporters will have the scales fall from their eyes (and, of course, follow the Path of the One True Ted), so clearly they are.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well, as I (and Bags) have already tried to explain, not every voter is motivated by the same thing. WASP-wanna-be ricpic might think that talking like a totalitarian "defeats" fantasy totalitarians, but this is a democracy with elections and Trump's Never-Say-Die defenders are not the type of people who need to avoid feeling disgusted with a picture that I now wonder if Trump thought was a funny prank to play on his crowd of disciples. Trump has to get voters beyond those who just wear labels of "racist" or "Nazi" as badges of pride or proof of having pissed off the "right" people to win anything and it's as simple as that. But if you want and think being hated or perceived as hateful is the way to win an election be my guest and go right ahead. I know where I'll be standing and we can talk it over after this stand is played out.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Thank you Chick. I appreciate it.

I say they are not in play because they are already Trumpers, so whether or not it backfires with them is irrelevant.

Yes and no Bago. The American people are known for rooting for the underdog and inherintly understand fairness and unfairness. Unless you are a rabid supporter of another candidate or so diametrically opposed to the other side that your mind is closed...such as liberal progressive Democrats versus extremely conservative right wing Republicans, who never the twain shall meet, I would assume that many people will see the absolute unfairness and ridiculousness of accusing Trump supporters and Trump of being Nazis because of a photo showing them with raised hands.

Even if you are not a Trump supporter a person might be turned off by such comparisons. (I don't use the term Trumpers because that is indicative of an already biased and closed mind who wants to denigrate his/her opponents. Just in the same way that people use the term Tea Bagger when they know it is derogatory and lewid) They probably know a Trump supporter or tow, perhaps their annoying uncle Joe or sweet little auntie Mae. Maybe the guy at the garage who changes the oil in your car. The waitress who serves you coffee in the morning. To see the hysteria and claims of SEE SEE NAZIS!!!!! and compare to the people you know. Most people will conclude, I would hope, that the media is going off of their rockers, yet again.

Don't be so sure that there aren't others who will be disgusted by the efforts to smear completely innocent people merely because they have the temerity to chose a different candidate.

Trooper York said...

What is different is what DBQ recognized in Trump. Trump is not going to take this lying down the George W Bush/Mitt Romney way. He is going to directly mock the media and call them out for the lying scum they are. He is not going to take it lying down. He is going to take it to them and they are going to find out just how unpopular they really are with the rest of America.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Ok DBQ. I predict that more people and more potential Trump supporters will be turned-off by the picture than upset with the lack of "fairness" for having judged him wanting in allowing for that magic moment.

Forget the fucking picture. How about just asking for political oaths, period. Trump thought he was being cute but the idea of it is still creepy to most voters, I'd wager to guess.

To use the words "completely" and "innocent" within the same sentence as "Trump" is bonkers. This idea of him as a saint is hilarious. The only thing that makes him a saint is his saint-like ability to forget how everything he said earlier never happened once it looks worse in the light of day. Being able to forget what he said and change the script from minute-to-minute might be a blessing to him and his gas-lighting ways, but it's no virtue.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

To use the words "completely" and "innocent" within the same sentence as "Trump" is bonkers. This idea of him as a saint is hilarious.

Read again. I was talking about the crowd and the people who have decided that Trump is their guy.

I have no doubt that Trump is not a manipulative person and certainly not a saint. He would not have gotten where is is in life if he wasn't successful at it. Success matter too, you know.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

So does how you get it.

We will see...

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I meant I have no doubt that Trump IS a manipulative person. Geeze. Proofreading is also important /facepalm

Trooper York said...

I think more people will think the picture is media bullshit or won't even see it or care that much one way or the other. It is a blip on the screen after all.

We are in our own little bubble here of news/blog junkies. Most people don't give two shits.

Chip Ahoy said...

He called you ass toot.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Interesting view of Trump from our northern neighbor. He even used my Augean Stable analogy

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

I want you to get up now

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Good read DBQ. Thanks.

I'm not on the Trump camp because I don't have to yet.

Everything is so unbelievable (people are joining the GOP in droves?) I keep thinking it could be like the Red Sox before they started winning. They would come close and break your heart every time.

So I'm going to wait and watch enthusiastically how it all plays out.

bagoh20 said...

The term "Trumper" is some slur now? By what stretch of civility bullshit should anyone be careful with language toward Trump? If you are that sensitive, you should be supporting Kasich or Carson. "Tea bagger" had a specific sexual alternative meaning. What could "Trumper" even mean other than a supporter of Trump? It's pretty intellectually dishonest to be offend by that when you admire a man specifically for being rude and uncivil himself.

chickelit said...

Who's bothered by the term "Trumper"? I'm a bit bothered being called a Nazi.

bagoh20 said...

I know a lot more people who are not supporting Trump than do around here, and they love this stuff that makes him and the Trumpers look bad. Everything that you think is playing well is not with at least half the country. You love that it pisses off the right people, but those people represent the attitudes and values of millions, and they see it as very negative cementing their antipathy toward him as much as it cements Trumpers' support for him. Nobody outside the Trump tent imagines Trump as the underdog at this point. That's just part of the self-deception in that tent that has them all believing they are victims, and isn't that really what this is all about self-proclaimed victim-hood and revenge?

chickelit said...

I know a lot more people who are not supporting Trump than do around here, and they love this stuff that makes him and the Trumpers look bad.

But who are they for bags? You know I'm for Trump. I think you're for Cruz. You risk being defined by your negativity.

bagoh20 said...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying this stupid photo and the Nazi thing is fair. It's pure bullshit, but the reason it's viral is that so many people want to see Trump and his support in that light, and they want lots of other people to as well, and this stuff is making it easy. It should not be relished or explained as some purposefully brilliant move. It's not.

chickelit said...

The word Trumper uses the agent suffix "er" like countless other Anglo-Saxon terms.

Oops! Can I use the term Anglo-Saxon w/o being thought a racist?

Now "Trumpist" sounds very elitist, and a bit effeminate, so I might object to that!

chickelit said...

It's pure bullshit, but the reason it's viral is that so many people want to see Trump and his support in that light, and they want lots of other people to as well, and this stuff is making it easy.

I'm sure that some of those same people would like to see Trump "eliminated" and they'd cheer his demise. That's the end result of Hitler comparisons and he's racking up some very powerful enemies.

bagoh20 said...

They mostly support Democrats, but might stay home rather than support Hillary. They sure are not enthused by her. But they will most certainly come out specifically to prevent someone they see as a dangerous racist Nazi whatever. This stuff and the way he's conducting himself might get some people all excited, but that works both ways, and like I said it only works on the ones who are already committed to him at this point.

bagoh20 said...

I prefer "Trumpet". It's loud, drowns everything else out and takes a blowhard to get it going.

chickelit said...

"Trumpet" also has the portmanteau word master/slave connotation.

chickelit said...

Anyone "enthused" by Hillary must be somehow paid to be so.

edutcher said...

bagoh20 said...

The term "Trumper" is some slur now?

The Cruz crowd has been slurring the trump people from the f-cking start.

How many - Trmspter, Trumpkin, idiot, rube cult, Trumpette, sTrumpette?

But say, "Cruzzer", and guess who gets all "offended"?

How about just Trump supporter?My God, you people are as annoying as Libertarians.

And every bit as fussy.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Anyone "enthused" by Hillary must be somehow paid to be so.

They are almost all over-50 somethings who identify with her "need" to run in order to work out her personal resentments and other psychological issues of their generation. That and weird political tribalists who somehow think that a president with a "D" after their name is somehow more worthy of support than a president with integrity.

bagoh20 said...

I don't get offended by "Cruzzer". I just objected to it on accuracy grounds before I actually decided he was best for me. At this point, I guess I'm a Cruzzer, but that doesn't mean I'll defend anything he may do or has done.

In fact, I don't think I've ever been offended in my life. I just don't get being offended. I don't have that gene.

chickelit said...

Cruzador might be culturally more sensitive term than Cruzzer. Of course if we allow Cruzador there must be Cruzadoration.

bagoh20 said...

"Cruzador" is awesome, and it would really piss of the Islamists. I like it. Bring back the Cruzades!

chickelit said...

Los Cruzadores!

If nothing else, you and I could brand our own tequila.

chickelit said...

Or "El Cruzadore"

Methadras said...

What's that old saying, "Ignore me at your peril."