Monday, December 28, 2015

Cleveland officers will not be charged in Tamir Rice's death.

CNN: "No indictment in Tamir Rice case, prosecutor says"
Rice was holding a pellet gun when he was shot. It was "reasonable" to believe that the officer who killed the boy was facing a threat, (prosecutor) McGinty said.
The officer was in training outside a Cleveland recreation center in November 2014. The shooting sparked controversy given Tamir's age and the fact that he had a gun that resembled a handgun.
A witness called 911, reporting there was "a guy with a pistol," adding that the weapon was "probably" fake.
Information that the gun the caller saw was probably not real and that the person holding it appeared to be a juvenile was not conveyed to Officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback, according to recordings that law enforcement released.

47 comments:

Amartel said...

No lessons are learned, the killing will continue. The delicate balance in which opposing Dem constituency groups all continue to thrive is maintained at the expense of actual individual people, who are mere collateral damage.

Methadras said...

I don't seem to understand is how comes roll in, see the kid with the pellet gun, which they can't discern is a pellet gun, yell at the kid to put down the gun (i'm assuming they did that), and the kid just stands there holding the gun in his hand. Why isn't the kid dropping the weapon? There is so much that isn't explained here that I'm intrigued by this.

bagoh20 said...

I can understand the shooting, although I think officers should be more courageous than what it takes to shoot-to-kill at the first sign of a threat, but I cannot accept that they refused to give the kid any aid until the FBI arrived and prevented his sister from approaching him or aiding him as he died. Cops need to try harder to avoid killing, and they need to act like they give a shit when they shoot people. Last year was one of the safest for cops in the U.S., with cops being shot even less than the year before all this anti-cop talk and protesting. Being a cop is not an especially dangerous job, and it's safer now, but only for them. I respect the job, but facts matter, and cops used to be a lot less dangerous to the rest of us, not to mention our dogs.

ricpic said...

Much of Cleveland is enemy territory for a cop no matter what he does or doesn't do. Is that an excuse? No. Is there a solution? No. Though draconian law enforcement would save the lives of many more innocents than sensitivity ever has.

bagoh20 said...

When I was a 12 year old kid in 1970 gun violence was much higher, but I think a local cop back then in this situation would not have shot this kid. He would have taken the time to either get him to lay it down, or to determine that it was a fake and walked right up to him and took it away. I think in my home town back then he wouldn't even have taken it, but would have sent me on my way with it.

bagoh20 said...

It seems clear to me that through media and training we are making our cops terrified to be on the street, and we are adding a hair trigger to the use of force policies. That needs changed.

Amartel said...

Youth have been told they are (1) invulnerable and (2) victims. Presto, dead youth. Cops don't get the respect they used to get. Kids take more risks, feel empowered to tangle with cops. Cops get off the hook because (1) union, (2) common sense (don't wave weapon at cop and resist arrest). Kids get dead, race hustlers celebrate. Rinse, repeat.

edutcher said...

Come to Akron for New Year's.

William said...

The cop could have acted better, but if you're pointing fingers, point one at the mother. Mothers don't send your children out to the playground with realistic looking guns. Dont send them on play dates with Michael Jackson. Don't let them look for Indian arrow heads in the median divider of major highways.

Rabel said...

Same mistake Darren Wilson made. Put himself in a vulnerable position (seated and needing to exit the car to effectively defend himself) by pulling the car too close to the suspect (although in this case it was the driver and not the shooter who made the mistake). Wilson was attacked when he tried to exit the car from that vulnerable position, this guy, thanks to the driver, got out firing without giving himself any opportunity to observe and evaluate the risk from a relatively safe position.

bagoh20 said...

I just watched the video for the first time, and Rabel is right. The driver pretty much forced this tragedy, but I think based on recent shootings, even if they had some distance, the chances are he would have been shot. I would like to know how often the cops defuse such situations and get the person to lay down the weapon and then not shoot them.

Amartel said...

I'm sure Mom had tons of control over her Dear Dead Son.
Junior went to the playground with his pellet gun because that's what all the kids do in that neighborhood. Say, MOM, why not move away from there, live where family values are honored? Because change is for other people and her "community" is there and she's been told the government will protect and that "out there" she'd be surrounded by racist whites who are out to git her and she lacks the imagination to question these precepts and make a better life elsewhere. So you can blame Mom all day but it won't do any good. At least the cops will make an effort to change - stop rolling up on a melee with they assumption that they're automatically going to establish control just by their presence. Incorrect assumption, now. Unfortunate outcome, of course, for people who will be killed whilst the police are hanging back and assessing. The other people who will never change are the racemongers. This is good business for them. Black lives matter but only in the sense that dead black people are a political bonanza for these swinish bloodthirsty whores.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Maybe the answer is more training.

rcocean said...

There are 750,000 sworn Law Enforcement officers in the USA. About 500 crooks get killed every year by Policeman. that's 1 death per 1,500 policeman. How many of these 500 deaths were preventable, 100 maybe? That means 1 out of 7,500 policeman are involved in a questionable killing by police.

Making generalization with those kind of numbers is useless. Maybe out of 1000 cops, 600-700 would've behaved differently and not shot Tamil. Who knows?

As for myself, I find it uncomfortable telling people who put their lives on line that they need to be more "courageous". I mean, its not like its going to cost me anything.

Trump fan said...

Hey bags don't forget to tell the cops family (wife n children). That you are sorry your father and husband was shot dead by some punk because people thought he should have wait until he is fired upon before he returns fire.

bagoh20 said...

I'm very concerned it's gonna cost me something, maybe everything. This kid was 12, and he had a damned pellet gun at a park, just like I did when I was 12. I walked around town with it, and shot stuff: cans, pigeons, whatever. My parents and I never had to even consider that would get me shot by the cops. All someone has to do is call the cops on your kid and either lie or make a mistake about what they thought they saw, and your kid could be dead. This happened because the 911 operator neglected to tell the cops that the caller said it was probably a fake gun. Once they showed up WITHOUT that info, he was as good as dead, and it didn't matter what the circumstances were before they got there or who's kid it was. You're damned right I want them to act differently, and yes, I think that means the courage to not shoot to kill at first sight of something unknown. I don't think this evolution among our police is acceptable. Cab drivers have a more dangerous job, but that wouldn't get me to accept them robbing a few passengers every once in a while, let alone shooting them. Having a dangerous job, doesn't make you above being competent, and killing those you are paid to protect is less than stellar work. The whole system failed here. People should be able to be young and mildly foolish without getting killed for it, even if some of the rest of us got lucky with that.

Trump fan said...

Hey rabelyou forgot to mention the fact that the punk grabbed the cops gun and tried to shoot him in the car.

Trump fan said...

From my understanding it was a dangerous neighborhood. And there were a lot of shootings. So I can understand the mindset of the cop arriving on the scene

bagoh20 said...

Trump Fan,
We have a dead kid, and yes an innocent kid. The cops went home that night and were in no danger. In fact, they very rarely are. I guess if we want to make sure less of them are at risk, we can make the policy to shoot all black youths on sight, just to be sure. If it saves even one cop's life...

Trump fan said...

I think it's great idea that cops should wait and pause before they shoot.
Hey bags when some punk is pointing a gun at someone in your family maybe the cops should wait until he shoots one of them before he takes action

Trump fan said...

So your pointis that a cops job is not dangerous. Are you f***ckin nuts. How safe is it to do a car stop. How safe is it do go into a domestic situation.
There are millions of police interactions every year and there are very few times when someone is killed.

Trump fan said...

Go on you tube and look at car stops where cops are killef.

Trump fan said...

Killed

Trump fan said...

Also regarding your point about how many times the cops get perps to lay down thier weapons before firing thier weapons. Look no further than the NYPD.
Lowest number of times that police fired thier weapons since this statistic has been tracked.
And the NYPD is the largest police force in the land.

Trump fan said...

Besides I did 12 years in Spanish Harlem and Washington heights in the early 90's and 2000. It wasn't pretty

bagoh20 said...

Read the stats.

And your point is that if it's dangerous, then they can do no wrong? That there is no reason to modify policy or change anything, even if innocent people are being killed with no chance of survival while violent crime is far lower than before? You don't find any issue with all the incidents where the victim gets 50 holes shot in them while they are holding a garden hose or even a knife? I think we can do better if we gave a shit, and stopped thinking of it as us against them. It's often us against us, and I'm as scared of the cops as the bad guys now.

bagoh20 said...

"Lowest number of times that police fired thier weapons since this statistic has been tracked"

It would be interesting to see how many bullets get fired. I have a problem with the doctrine of emptying your weapon at these incidents. I don't think you would approve of your neighbor doing that if he hears a noise at night. Same fear - same reaction - no training, and he might be wrong too, as your kid goes through his yard for a short cut.

chickelit said...

Yes, rabel, the similarity to the Michael Brown shooting is profound except for Brown having his hands in the air the whole time.

bagoh20 said...

Or your neighbor might call the cops and mistaken say your kid was armed and then they show up scared, with 100 rounds, and your kid carrying his cell phone. What's his chances at that point?

chickelit said...

The shooting sparked controversy given Tamir's age and the fact that he had a gun that resembled a handgun.

This is 20/20 hindsight.

bagoh20 said...

This incident with Tamir Rice was less the shooting cops's fault than the 911 operator and his driver. Other shootings bother me more, where the victim is really unable to harm the officers, or they have no idea if he's really armed and they shoot him full of holes anyway, because ???

I can understand that fear in most of us, but I want better people in that dangerous capacity, and I want better policy that does not put the cop's safety above all other concerns. It's a very high concern, but not all we should care about.

Trump fan said...

OK so now the cops are only allowed to fire one shot. Whygive them a full magazine. Better yet have them put the bullets in the trunk. Then when someone is pointing a gun at someone in your family. He will tell the perp wait until I go into the trunk to load my weapon
Makes no sense

Trump fan said...

Hey chick its obvious you did not follow the case. The punk did not have his hands up. I think the guy in the grocery store he robbed and assaulted had his hands up but not brown

Trump fan said...

Not sure if it was 20/20 or some other investigative show but they went thru a police training facility and were put thru a training exercise. The reporter fired his gun and emptied his magazine and did not realize how many shots were fired

Trump fan said...

Besides I would love to know the statistics showing the nbr of unjustified police shootings nationwide compared to the number of police interactions. It would prob be less then 1/2 %.
Besides no cop leaves his house saying I can't wait to go out and kill civilians

chickelit said...

Trump fan said...
Hey chick its obvious you did not follow the case.

It's OK Trumpfan. I was just testing your irony meter. You must be new here. Carry on!

William said...

@bagoh: Based on what you've heard about this case would you send the officer to prison and, if so, for how long?.........It seems to me that a lot of people screwed up. The dispatcher didn't pass along the info that the gun was reported as possibly fake. Someone--probably the kid--took the orange safety cap off the gun to make it look more real. The driver pulled up too close to the kid. The mother didn't appear to supervise her child with due prudence. There were a lot of screw ups. It seems to me grossly unfair to single out the the shooter cop for a bad decision made in a perilous moment when so many other bad decisions were made in moments that were not perilous.

Rabel said...

"Yes, rabel, the similarity to the Michael Brown shooting is profound..."

I didn't say that it was, Chick.

Rabel said...

"Hey rabelyou forgot to mention the fact that the punk grabbed the cops gun and tried to shoot him in the car."

I said he was attacked. Did I need to recount the details?

Rabel said...

And one small point, "tried to shoot him in the car" is not correct. Brown never had full control of the gun.

Trump fan said...

So some control of the gun ???
And I believe the gun was discharged in the car.
The innocent child decided to go up to the police officer in his car and tried to grab his weapon.
Most innocent people do that.

Trump fan said...

Oh and please explain the robbery and the assault in the grocery store.

Trump fan said...

I know what happened. The store owner grabbed this punk dragged him into the store grabbed his hands with his throat and then threw himself on the floor.

Rabel said...

TF you're arguing with someone who agrees with you on most of the facts of the Brown case. You were simply wrong in your representation of what happened during the struggle for the gun and your later comments must have an origin somewhere in the back of your head because I don't see where you get them based on anything I've ever posted here.

So I'm standing behind my comment.

And later tonight, your mother.*

*Hat tip: Sheldon Cooper, Episode 47.

rcocean said...

I wrote this before but I'll write it again. Cops - and the military - are taught that once you start shooting you don't stop until the Target is on the ground and harmless. That's why you started shooting in the first place, to make a threat into a non-threat.

Stop talking about shooting 1 or 2 times or shooting them in the foot or a leg or whatever.

That's not reality.

bagoh20 said...

Because sometimes the first shot is a mistake.

Maybe they should reload and empty a couple additional magazines, then call in some back up, so the whole shift can empty their weapons, just to be sure.

Christy said...

It's location, location, location. I was always amused, concerned and conflicted by the antics of young relatives in the suburbs of Knoxville, which would have gotten them locked up or killed in my area of Baltimore. Innocent fun. Is it recognizable in gang territory?