Friday, August 29, 2014

St. Louis shooting

An apparently disturbed man is wielding a knife on a St. Louis sidewalk. The odd thing about it is people are walking by him as if nothing much is happening, proceeding as an ordinary day. It is not ordinary. Somebody is recording on their phone. The police have already been called. A police cruiser pulls up and two cops emerge and confront the disturbed individual who paces back and forth, jumps up onto an elevated lawn, approaches the officers, apparently shouts, "shoot me, just shoot me," and they do. They kill the man dead on the spot to the shock of the witnesses who lingered.



I've been thinking about this for days. 

I still cannot comprehend it. 

I suppose the police do not know what we know that people walked right by unharmed, almost as if, "Eh, there goes another nutter," but still unharmed. Witnesses are uncomprehending of the shooting as I. 

Comments to the video are not helpful in understanding. The comments I got through say police are trained shoot to kill not to disarm, not to harm. But that does not answer why the police did not tase and arrest the man. Why did they have to kill the man dead on the spot? Was he so threatening to them in their moment? 

They most likely said, "Drop the knife," and the man disobeyed. Taking just a few steps in the direction of the armed and ready police is all it took to kill him.

Kill him.

It's over. Just like that. Dead on the sidewalk. A life for a simple act of non compliance. 

This is what people of St. Louis mean when they riot to demand justice. This makes sense of their disjointed speeches. Their argument does not make sense in isolation of the riots but it does make sense in context of this larger experience of their whole lives. Justice generally, to treat mental disturbance as such. Not everything is a criminal act deserving of instant death. 

We are shown the video of Michael Brown stealing some small package of come type of cigars and stiff-arming the store proprietor and viewers of that incident outside of this context of widespread unemployment and little hope for advancement and general injustice regard Michael Brown as obviously criminally minded. Not deserving of death for stealing cigars, but later, not interacting with police as we've all been taught. You do not approach cops in a threatening manner, Ever. That's just a plain simple fact. But that is not deserving of instant death either. 

That is how the people there see the whole situation as living inside it. Bashing in the policeman's eye socket does complicate the narrative greatly. Goofs up their grievance. But so does this video complicate the narrative greatly, and I imagine many other incidents too like this that are not recorded but known without video proof, and lived every day, experiences lived and real and then additional narratives imagined, the unknown details filled in by what is known by experience.

By what I see here in this short video, this strikes me as quite slobbish, careless and ruthless police work. This is the injustice that is lived every day and protested. This is what causes rioting. This is what causes what is termed riot tourism, outsiders swarming the town specifically to act out and tear up the place in riot -- make their own justice, absurd as it seems to outsiders they are protesting this and incidents like this that they live and are not recorded, so not known to people who do not live it.

Convince me otherwise. I won't argue.

147 comments:

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I recall there used to be talk about cops actually living in the neighborhoods where they worked and getting out of their cars and circulating among the civilian population.

Maybe there is still talk or maybe it's being done in places. I don't know.

But I do know that for some people it's pretty easy to see the police as a sort of occupying army.

The Dude said...

Just think of it as real late-term abortion, one of the most popular procedures in his part of town.

No?

How about "Some people just need killin'"?

Still no?

Crazy is as crazy does. Death by firing squad?

Anyone who would stand downrange behind a cop's target is asking to get shot themselves - pleece are notoriously bad shots.

Unknown said...

This is much worse that the Brown incident. WTF? The police are insane.

Brown, if reports are correct, did everything wrong. He disobeyed a simple order to get out of the middle of the street, Brown went after the police officer's gun, he threatened the officer, he lunged at the officer, and maybe even hit the officer in the eye. (all after a robbery) Had Brown simply walked to the edge of the street, he would be alive, off somewhere smoking stolen cigars.

Agree with your assessment on this-- 100%, Chip.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chip Ahoy said...

The whole things has the look of the Madison cop who blithely maced the group of sitting protesters. Psssst, psssst, there ya go, have yourself some mace in the face. Except lethal.

Thread Jack my own thread.

I awoke from the strangest dream. I was pissing powerfully into a urinal and splattering all over the place like mad.

To avoid dreaded backsplash I took aim at a basin two urinals down, quite an impressive distance, and that splattered all over the place too, being so far away.

Then a cleaning woman came into the men's bathroom and took umbrage with my messy pissing.

I said, "FIne! I'll wipe it up myself."

Then I awoke.

I learned once your body bothers to induce a stream of pissing and then you wake up, you might as well go straight to the bathroom. No lingering around putting that off until later. Just do it. Because it's going to be nag nag nag nag nag nag nag until you do, so just get it over with and go already.

What a disappointment when it turns out to be a regular piss and not a gigantic piss as the dream promised it would.

Know what I mean?

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

When I was in grade school they brought in a state trooper to talk to the class. I think the idea was to put a friendly face on it. You know, the police officer is your friend.

Frankly, I thought he was scary. Couldn't take my eyes off the gun and bullets on his belt.

I saw some documentary on TV about the penal system and I remember some inmate guy saying, "The first thing you learn in prison is the guards are not here to protect you, they're here to make sure you don't escape."

A broadly applicable viewpoint, I should think.

Unknown said...

The answer, of course, is to turn the police into the nationalized TSA. It's patriotic, dontcha know.

The democrats have big fascist McCatkill big state plans.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Regarding tasers, my brother-in-law spent some of his residency working in the emergency ward of a center city hospital.

He said that the people who complain about the police using tasers ought to see what a skull looks like that's been worked over with a nightstick.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

A nightstick's got this metal ball kind of thing on the bottom.

I've heard cops refer to it as the "rib spreader."

Cute.

The Dude said...

If the police had no prior knowledge of this armed idiot's behavior, this shooting might seem a bit much.

My guess is that the deranged, now deceased perp has had numerous contacts with the police.

Viewed without any further information, just his armed aggression towards the police I see two things - police will stop you in your tracks when their lives are on the line, and never take a knife to a gun fight.

Seriously, why was this large insane person allowed to roam in civilization? The police did what had to be done, probably should have been done long ago, and I think they should have shot the sumbitch in the head when he was on the ground just to make sure he was dead.

Heartless? You bet - savages, crazy or not, should not be allowed wander, free-range, in a place where others might be harmed.

Remember when we used to luck up crazy dangerous fucks? Liberals made sure they now walk around, free as a bird.

Quit whining libs - you can't have it both ways - keep them inside or bury 'em.

I, for one, am glad the police did what had to be done to get that looney tune off the street.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Let's see, while I'm at it, cops have this thing they call a "screen test." If they've got a drunk in the back they go real fast and then slam on the brakes so the drunk smashes his head against the screen that separates the front seat from the rear seat.

Cute.

Shouting Thomas said...

That guy was within what, 15 feet of the cops, and threatening them with a knife.

I've been reading the comments of a few veterans about knife attacks. They say that a knife is more dangerous and faster than a gun within 20 feet.

I'm not competent to comment on this, but it looks more complex than you are willing to admit.

Are you sure that the cop had any time to do anything other than what he did?

The Dude said...

S/b "lock", not "luck". Dude's luck ran out that day. So long, won't miss ya.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

I believe I read or maybe heard on one of the news channels that maybe the man with the knife had an idea similar to this man in Jersey City.

...a gunman who had told a drugstore customer to watch the news because he was “going to be famous.”

Maybe the knife man didn't expect to be killed.

The Dude said...

Ha! Joke's on him!

chickelit said...

An apparently disturbed man is wielding a knife on a St. Louis sidewalk. The odd thing about it is people are walking by him as if nothing much is happening, proceeding as an ordinary day. It is not ordinary.

Is this the same "suicide by cop" incident discussed last week on Althouse?...the one where it was suggested that the cops should have taken the risk of knife wounds for the sake of PR?

The dynamics are interesting as well. The fact that the knife-wielder poses no threat to the passersby reminds me of the street mayhem in London a year or so ago where the assailants wielded a machete and hacked a British soldier to death. It was abundantly clear that in the London case, they posed no harm to the general population, and only wanted to confront "western authority." So it was here in St. Louis. The man was clearly taunting the cops.

I do agree that a taser would have been the weapon of choice. Even filmed in HD, it would have bolstered the cops' case.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

Don't know if this is true, but I've heard that they'll put a telephone book on top of a guy's head and bash it with a hammer.

No marks but it produces one hell of a headache.

We've all heard about the patdown technique that makes the suspect flinch so the cops gets to beat the shit out of him.

I don't know exactly how it's done but I've heard that some cops will jab a sewing needle or something in the guy's armpit.

I hope that's not true.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

Link to the Jersey City shooting story.

Shouting Thomas said...

One of the demands of the protesters in St. Louis is precisely "black cops for black communities."

You might want to look at the outcome of this strategy as it actually played out in New Orleans and Los Angeles.

The standards for cops were lowered to such an extent in both cities, in order to hire blacks, that felons were recruited onto both forces, with disastrous results.

Lem the artificially intelligent said...

"the one where it was suggested that the cops should have taken the risk of knife wounds for the sake of PR?"

Did Althouse suggest that?

Shouting Thomas said...

I repeat.

I think you are very seriously underestimating the threat that a knife attack from close range represents.

This essay by Fred Reed is the most humane and interesting statement I've read about the dilemma of the police in black neighborhoods.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I guess they breed cops in a special laboratory so they no longer have the "flight" part of their fight-or-flight response.

Unknown said...

What causes rioting is misinformation from the narrative pushing hack press and the arrival of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

chickelit said...

The London street hackers/whackers and the man in St. Louis have a common goal: to destroy and undermine extant authority and to replace it with something else -- some other system of laws. It's clear which system they want in London, but I'm not at all sure what the guy in St. Louis wanted except perhaps simple martyrdom.

Shouting Thomas said...

My reading of veterans' comments on firing a revolver at close range has also been interesting.

Once again, a subject I don't know much about.

The vets say that a revolver is notoriously inaccurate. Cops tend to empty the revolver, both because of adrenaline, and because a revolver at close range is a very inaccurate instrument.

The Dude said...

He was insane, so in that regard, he had no plan for anything beyond his immediate need for gratification, you know, kind of like a law prof.

William said...

The onlookers kept a respectful distance from the crazy man with the knife. They weren't tasked with disarming him, and none of them made any attempt to do so.. They only had to walk around him. The cops were given a far more difficult and hazardous task.......I don't think the cops covered themselves with glory here. They were at risk but not in mortal peril. But just showing up for the job takes a certain amount of courage, and I wouldn't second guess them.....If you subject these cops to criminal charges or even just shaming them, then good luck recruiting the next class for the Police Academy.

Shouting Thomas said...

One again, April, I suggest you read Fred Reed's essay.

We are all gassing as if the cops face a simple situation to which there are ideal responses.

Reed's essay is, I think, remarkably compassionate to all sides in this controversy.

bagoh20 said...

I would agree this is why SOME people protest and riot, but not most of them. The proof is that most of the rioters don't care about the brutality if the victim is non-Black, and what the hell does robbing the local store owner you buy your stuff from have to do with it?

No, the primary reason for most rioters is having a good time, getting free stuff, and pure emotional indulgence in the absence of any self-discipline.

It's important to remember that not all cops, protesters, shootings are the same. I don't think this guy needed killed or even shot, but it seems that Brown forced the cop to shoot him. The Brown shooting is a bad case to make a stand on, and that's the problem. This should be the shooting causing the protests or the one in Utah with the white victim and the Black cop.

It seems to me that the "Black community" has a habit of choosing the worst individuals and cases to make a stand on: O.J., Travon, Obama, Brown, etc. This makes it controversial and a big fight because a lot of us just can't side with a bad actor regardless of race.

Trooper York said...

You are just getting old Chip. Wait until you have to get up to piss twenty times a night.

Good times.

Shouting Thomas said...

I have a black friend on FB who is really into the rap thug culture and music.

I'm willing to bet that this culture and music dominates the black community in St. Louis.

So, the cops are hearing and witnessing this bravado and threatening of cops all day every day. (I've lived in a neighborhood where this was reality.) The threats and bragging are constantly being broadcast out of passing cars and apartment windows.

Do you know what this does to your state of mind after long exposure?

How do you separate out the black guys who are just into it for show and fun from the guys who really mean it?

ndspinelli said...

From professional and personal experience, I know cops better than most. We have become a culture of super villains and super heroes. That is fantasy, planted by shitty movies that make people feel good. Cops are not super heroes or villains. There are a few of each, but they are almost always flawed humans, trying to do the right thing in stressful situations regular folk can never fathom. There are dad shooting. There are cops who have no business being one. This shooting looks bad to me. But, knowing just how stressful it can be working in the jungle, I am never quick to judge.

ndspinelli said...

Trooper, FLOMAX!

Trooper York said...

Marvin Gaye was the victim of a dad shooting.

It can happen to anyone.

Just sayn'

edutcher said...

Because the people were blase and the man hadn't hurt anybody yet doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous.

Also, St Lou has the rep of a rough town, the Knockout Game is very popular there.

OTOH, yes, court orders to diversify have lowered standards (somebody made a point about how many of these shootings were by women*) and a hike in discipline and basic shooting skills wouldn't hurt, but we're talking about another Democrat bastion where ideas like discipline and professionalism are dirty words.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I guess they breed cops in a special laboratory so they no longer have the "flight" part of their fight-or-flight response.

I don't think flight is an option if you're a cop.

Freeze (the new paradigm is flight-fight-freeze) might be.

* Comment, nd?

Chip S. said...

Oh, brave Peace Officers, whose first move upon leaving their vehicle was to draw their guns!

Yep, that's an excellent way to reduce tension.

And look how close that guy was! Almost as close as the many ordinary citizens who just walked around him were.

The one thing I've learned from this blog is that there's always an imagined circumstance under which cops are justified in pumping 9 shots into anyone.

Unknown said...

Interesting take, ST. I still think this particular bright daylight shooting was unnecessary.

Shouting Thomas said...

Oh, brave Peace Officers, whose first move upon leaving their vehicle was to draw their guns!

Ever been confronted by somebody with a knife? I have. If I'd had a gun, you can bet I would have drawn it. And used it without hesitation.

Yep, that's an excellent way to reduce tension.

They weren't trying to "reduce tension." They were trying to get home alive to their wives and children after their shift.

You would do the same in their shoes.

Chip S. said...

Thanks, ST. I"m always totally persuaded by arguments based on assertions of imaginary facts.

Shouting Thomas said...

I lived in Ft. Greene Park in Brooklyn during the worst of the crack epidemic.

Walking down the street in broad daylight, I passed through a gauntlet of black thugs on the street corners muttering:

"What in the fuck you doing here white boy? Who the fuck you think you are?"

In the summer the rap music would be booming out of every open window. Constant threats against the police. Constant bragging about the willingness to use violence and to kill. Every open car window would be broadcasting the same message.

I can tell you what this did to me. I was on edge all the time, always ready to go on the attack, always looking for a way to be the first to strike.

You don't think this is happening to an even worse extent with the cops?

Chip S. said...

Interesting view of the cops' role in a free society: Their job isn't to keep the peace, it's to subdue the population.

Let's just agree to disagree about that.

Shouting Thomas said...

Thanks, ST. I"m always totally persuaded by arguments based on assertions of imaginary facts.

Which facts in my statement are in question?

I have had a knife pulled on me. If I'd had a gun, I would have shot the SOB without hesitation.

I suggest you read Fred Reed's essay. The cops, I think I can say factually, want to go home to their wives and families.

My only conjecture was about what you would do in the same situation the cops faced. I'm pretty confident that you would do the same thing, but that's conjecture, not fact.

Shouting Thomas said...

Their job isn't to keep the peace, it's to subdue the population.

I became totally in favor of subduing the criminal population of Ft. Greene. By any means necessary.

Ever been in that situation?

KCFleming said...

This is just like the Indiana Jones movie scene where the Arab guy is shouting and swinging his machete and Jones plugs him dead.

1. Why call the cops if he wasn't 'bothering' anyone?
Just waving a knife around and shouting, like they do in everyone's neighborhood.
What did they think would happen?

2. The cops have to clean up Crazy Man With A Knife, but without hurting citizens or getting killed themselves.
Why not Tase the dude?
I dunno.
Man, this looked bad.
Drive up. Shout. Shoot. Handcuff. Bag and tag.

Then again, WTF is wrong with these people that this is everyday shit in their neighborhood?
How do you end up like that, where this is SOP?

3. The Black man's rage is because their culture is dying.
The cops have to keep a lid on it, keep their self-destructiveness from spreading.

So how do you police Plumb Crazytown?
Drone Tasers?
Xanax in the water?
I got nuthin'.

I'm Full of Soup said...

The nutcase moved very quickly - after he was told to drop the knife and put his hand up.

And how about the sooper geenyouses watching it - they are standing in the potential line of fire.

The Dude said...

Some portions of the population need to be subdued. Crazy assholes armed with knives are on the top of my list.

Better the police do the shooting - a citizen's life would be ruined if he acted to protect himself or his family.

These are not benign people. Think of them as homegrown terrorists, ISIS in St. Louis, if you will, and you will better understand what the police are dealing with.

Crazy fuckers who mean to harm as many innocents as they can, and if not stopped, they will go right on doing harm.

I have no idea where you live, Chip S, but I have spent decades living in majority black communities and there are some absolutely deranged motherfuckers wandering around out there. Sometimes they move right next door. It is not a comfortable situation, just sayin'.

So, in this case, I side with the police. As I have stated here, they didn't shoot him enough. Make the rubble bounce.

Meade said...

Chip Ahoy said...
"The whole things has the look of the Madison cop who blithely maced the group of sitting protesters. Psssst, psssst, there ya go, have yourself some mace in the face. Except lethal."

Madison? Did you mean UC Davis?

Revenant said...

They killed him because they think their lives are vastly more important than the lives of any non-policeman.

That's the whole of it. All the stories you heard about policemen putting themselves in danger to protect society are bullshit.

KCFleming said...

And look at this from Minnesota

"Why do I have to let you know who I am? Who I am isn't the problem," the man calmly replies.

"Because that's what police do when they get called," the officer responds.

The man explains he was sitting in the skyway waiting to pick up his kids at 10 o'clock from the New Horizon Academy school. He says he had gotten off work at Cossetta at 9 a.m.

"He tells the officer, "First off, that's a public area. And if there's no sign that [says], 'This is a private area, you can't sit here,' no one can tell me I can't sit here."

"The problem is..." the officer says, before she's cut off.

"The problem is I'm black. That's the problem," the man interjects. "It really is because I didn't do anything wrong."

Though that exchange was more conversational than confrontational, things escalate when another officer, Bruce Schmidt, arrives on the scene.

"What's up brother?" the man says to him.

"You're going to jail. You're not my brother," Schmidt replies.


...The man was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and obstructing the legal process, but those charges were later dropped.
"

KCFleming said...

So I have mixed feelings.

All this will end badly, is all I can think.

Time to get out to the range for practice.

The Dude said...

Good luck finding practice ammo.

KCFleming said...

I can always use those rubber bullets that Huffpo guy found.

You can buy those anywhwere.

ndspinelli said...

Great job ignoring troll folks! Keep it up. And, we have a growing number of us refugees @ Turley's Blog. It has evolved into a great, diverse, venue. Turley is left, but he is a strong libertarian and he took back his blog from a left wing faction. Haz, DBQ, Aridog have been over. Take a look. It's a real law prof who likes and respects his commenters. If you're looking for right wing echo chamber, that's not it.

sakredkow said...

This is turning into a leftie-free blog! I'm sure that's okay with some folks but I wouldn't want to see it happen.

We need a little more respectful disagreement here.

Where'd all us lefties go?

rcocean said...

what an odd video. Just when the man starts to approach the cops and get killed, the cameraman points the camera to the sidewalk. Why is that?

Second, an several points the idiot and the cameraman were in the line of potential fire. Had the cops opened up, and missed they would have been hit. Morons.

Third, get within X feet of cop, with a knife, after refusing to stop or drop the knife means only one thing - the policeman's life is in danger. Hence the shooting.

Everyone talking about tasers and shooting knifes out of someone's hand is just slinging BS.

rcocean said...

"Where'd all us lefties go?'

Why don't you pretend to be one? And then argue with yourself, then you won't be bored.

ndspinelli said...

phx, It is not w/ me. I want all types of opinions because I have diverse views. But, there is always the echo chamber problem, left and right. IMO the left is more vicious.

KCFleming said...

Phx, much as I disagree with you, I'm glad you post and argue your side.

A lot of leftism is merely slogan repetition and name-calling. No parry and thrust, nothing but demonization.

Beth at TOP was good at it.
Few others have been.

Michael Haz said...

I'm not going to link to it - but Google for 'knife wound pictures' for a graphic understanding of why people wielding knives are to be feared.

Cutting is the second leading cause of violent criminal death, right behind handguns.

While none of us know the exact circumstances, only what we see on a YouTube video, the dead guy became the dead guy after he moved toward the police, brandished a knife, and demanded that the police shoot him.

If you were the cop, what would you have done in that instant? I would have shot.

Someone upthread mentioned revolvers. Most LEOs long ago abandoned revolvers and switched to semi-automatic pistols. Glock is currently the preferred gun, and some departments use Beretta.

Michael Haz said...

Where'd all us lefties go?

We should have one day each week when everyone argues the exact opposite of their regular position.

I had a Poli Sci prof who offered to buy pitchers of beer in the student union for students who would show up and argue the opposite of their regular opinions. It was a lot of fun, and took the edge off of classroom antagonism over political and social beliefs.

The Dude said...

OJ was pretty good with a knife. ISIx guys like knives.

I prefer daisy cutters be used on the latter, but our dhimmi-in-chief has other plans.

sakredkow said...

Phx, much as I disagree with you, I'm glad you post and argue your side.

You guys are getting on my last nerve with all these personal attacks.

Trooper York said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trooper York said...

It is not an unusal occourence when the police shoot down a mentally ill person who is waving around a weapon. The case of Gidone Busch springs to mind.

He was a mentally ill Orthodox Jew who lived in Borough Park Brooklyn. He was out on the street raving and waving around a hammer. The cops tried to subdue him through physical force but he kept hitting them with the hammer so they shot him twelve times.

The Jews in Borough Park are a very tight knit community. Many of them knew Gidone and knew that he was a troubled individual. They went to the streets to protest in massive numbers. Protests. Anger. Prayers for the dead.

Of course there was no violence. No looting. No firebombs.

They are not animals.

There was a shooting by the cops of mentally ill person. It was a tragedy. Possibly a crime. But there was no need for a riot

rcocean said...

"You guys are getting on my last nerve with all these personal attacks."

Way to play devils advocate! Now, take the opposite position.

Rabel said...

It looks like a legally justifiable shooting. The last few shots, after he was going down, might have been a little strong. A guy with a gun, yeah, shoot until he stops moving. A guy with a knife and both hands exposed, I don't know.

One similarity I see with Ferguson is that the two policemen, particularly the one on the left, put themselves in a dangerous position in their initial approach. I should say that the driver put the left side guy in a bad spot. Much too close to a crazy man with a knife and little room to maneuver because of the car.

But they knew they could put 9 rounds into him in two seconds if he didn't obey their commands, so, no problem. Unless, of course, he had used the super ninja skills that all drunken lunatics possess (it's a proven, scientific fact I'm told) and killed them with his knife from 20 feet away in one second.

William said...

I have no legal training and no friends in high places. I'm not going to win an argument with a cop, and, if such argument becomes a physical confrontation, then I'm going to lose big. White privilege does not extend to unimportant white people. I know this for a fact and act accordingly......Some time back I had an acquaintance who was a cop. He was assigned to one of the NYC ferry terminals. A lot of homeless guys used the terminal to sleep in. His job was to clear them out before the morning rush hour.. Not every homeless skel and schizo responds well when they're told to move on. He sometimes got into physical confrontations. His big fear was not that some skel would overpower him but that some big shot liberal would witness him overpowering a skel, and it would be goodbye pension. Sometimes white cops are unimportant people......Despite the glamour and perks of his fabulous job, he retired first chance he got,

Trooper York said...

Police work is difficult and complex. Not everyone can do it well.

The problem is that too many affirmative action hires are not capable so they go to the tazer or the gun right away.

There are also many, many assholes who are cops. Not just white guys. The absolute worst? Midget lesbian cops.

They have a big chip on their shoulder.

The Dude said...

On the plus side, they don't have to be told to duck.

Trooper York said...

Some of the Asian ones are even named Duck.

Trooper York said...

I saw a Chinese girl cop in Midtown last week. Her nightstick was bigger than she was.

I think she should have been issued chopsticks.

We need to be sensitive to different cultures. Just sayn'

The Dude said...

Faith an' begorrah, O'Troop, it's a officer of the law ye should have become, lad. You'd be knockin' heads with the best of 'em.

Careful not to step on the wee coppers, though, you'd be sued for sure!

Lipperman said...

What about a community policing their own? I see several dudes walking away from the guy, and they don't seem afraid of him. Yet, they called the cops on 23 year old Kajieme Powell, who was well known in the area and was said to have learning difficulties.

Paddy O said...

Wyatt Earp would have pistol whipped the guy.

The Dude said...

Yeah, but using a Buntline Special to beat a perp senseless would be considered cruel and unusual punishment by the local constitutional scholars.

The Dude said...

Leaving him DRT is the best possible option.

Trooper York said...

Actually Wyatt Earp is a good example of what we should do.

He was a pimp, thief and gambler. The cops should withdraw and leave it to the "community to police."

When I was doing the taxes for various bars they would ask me who to hire for bouncers. I referred them to the Black Muslims who had a company that handled security for the "clubs." Problem solved.

ricpic said...

Their job isn't to keep the peace, it's to subdue the population.

The population is FERAL.

ricpic said...

Can't we get a thread on Brangelina?

They said they were going to hold off getting married till gay marriage was legal in all 57 states. They went back on their word!!!

chickelit said...

ricpic said...
Can't we get a thread on Brangelina?

That request should be directed to deborah who handles the "pink" requests. Here's the rundown again:

Lem and Haz are in charge of "Orange" - Sports and Leisure

Synova and I do "Green"- Science and Nature

Deborah is "Pink"- Entertainment

Chip does "Blue" - Geography as well as "Yellow"- History (actually, everybody does history)

Darcy and Palladian used to do "Brown"- Art and Literature

The Dude said...

I have never seen Chip work blue.

chickelit said...

Note that there never was a color or category for politics in Trivial Pursuit. But that's all anybody wants to discuss any more. :(

chickelit said...

Sixty Grit said...
I have never seen Chip work blue.

Well, he used to do posts on maps. Maybe you're confusing Lem's with Turley's...I hear Spinelli talks a blue streak.

Trooper York said...

Wait a minute.

That can't be right.

I know Palladian does it in the brown but I don't believe that of sweet Darcy.

chickelit said...

Deborah also worked "Brown" at least when she posted poetry.

Trooper York said...

Plus I thought Deborah was in charge of Jew bashing and making excuses for mudering Muslims?

chickelit said...

BTW, just last week I cleaned up at Trivial Pursuit, beating my family and in-laws single-handedly.

But my favorite bored game is/was one called "Ubi" which is out of print I beleive.

Trooper York said...

Plus isn't Lem more green when he posts after too many cervezas the night before. Just sayn'

chickelit said...

There you go again with politics, Troop.

Trooper York said...

Hey don't cut my head off.

Wait. That is someone else's department.

chickelit said...

Chip would like "Ubi" because instead of filling a pie, you build pyramids.

And he'd probably go nuts over an old board game I saved from my childhood called Voice Of The Mummy. It has a tiny record player inside.

chickelit said...

/threadjack

chickelit said...

Oh, I forgot. Darcy did sports pretty well.

Where is darcy?

Meade said...

Black man taken to jail for sitting in public area

Trooper York said...

Wow. Chickie you must have a ouija board. You called it. Hah.

chickelit said...

@Troop: I bet you clean up in the orange and pink departments, even though "orange" is going to hell.

Trooper York said...

A funny thing is that this season we took in a bunch of pink prints and they were not that strong. Blues really sold this year.

Trooper York said...

Clean? Seriously?

Man he is never going to work that hard.

Shouting Thomas said...

@Trooper

I stand corrected.

The SOB undoubtedly did a half assed job.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

"Revenant said...
All the stories you heard about policemen putting themselves in danger to protect society are bullshit."

The shooting of Andrea Rebello was the last straw for me on this point. She would have been better off if the police had never arrived.

Michael Haz said...

If you'd like to listen in on what Chicago police deal with, go here: http://www.chicagoscanner.com

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

phx said...
This is turning into a leftie-free blog!

Where'd all us lefties go?


I was asking the same thing a week ago. Hadn't heard from you for a while. But hey, it's summertime, the economy is humming along (4.2% GDP growth), Obamacare is working out just great (Repub Governor in Pennsylvania just folded) and the Republican presidential candidates look like a bunch of midgets (Romney redux looking increasingly likely). Hard to feel much agita at the moment. And, we all agree with Rand Paul on both the cops and war. The livin' is easy.

rcocean said...

Wow, so "leftist" = cop hater.

Good to know.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

ST, given the choice do you thing the girl or her family would have preferred that the cops turn up or stay away?

Shouting Thomas said...

@ARM

Given their choice, the family would have preferred that the cop was magician.

The cops were dealing with a repeat felony offender... a mad dog well known to police.

It's interesting that out of that entire story, which includes the fact that several people escaped precisely because the police arrived, your focus is puzzling.

Once again, you skate over the bane of our urban areas... black violence... to damn the cop. I wish the cop had shot straighter and just perforated the criminal.

Shouting Thomas said...

For the record, I wish that cops were miracle workers who could deal precisely, magically and perfectly with the insane epidemic of black violence that plagues our urban areas.

Perhaps, since you know how to perform that miracle, ARM, you should change professions, become a cop, and show us how to do it.

Trooper York said...

Wow ARM. An recently released convict breaks into a house full of women to rape or murder them...the cops come...he gets one in a headlock and threatens to kill her unless the cops let him go...the cop shoots and tragically kills the girl in the crossfire.

I am not an apologist for the cops but you are way off base. You want the dangerous criminal to go free with the girl so he can rape and kill her at her leisure?

Liberals always want to protect the criminals. Just wow. Wow!

Shouting Thomas said...

@Trooper

As I was reading about that home invasion near Hofstra, I was thinking about the savage Wichita Massacre. Had the cops not arrived and put an end to the home invasion near Hofstra, a similar atrocity might have occurred.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

So, this is the uncle's point of view, he is the family's spokesman.

"I think the guy did nothing right," Santos said. "In a case like that, you have to be professional. I don't know why he did not negotiate, ask for help."

"He should have negotiated," Santos said. "If he tried to negotiate, nothing would happen, I'm sure."

Santos said he is angry with the Nassau County officer, whom he believes should not have entered the off-campus home knowing an armed intruder was inside. Witnesses at the scene have told him that the gunman, Dalton Smith, held Andrea Rebello in a headlock and shouted at police, "If you shoot me, I shoot her."

"Police should have told him to take what he wanted but to leave the young woman alone", Santos said.

Obviously there was a criminal at the scene but this is kind of the whole point of cops, to minimize the effects of criminals, not shoot the fucking victim.

Trooper York said...

Just think of the crime that was the basis of "In Cold Blood."

Or even worse the "Cheshire Connecticut" home invasion murders.

These of the kind of people that ARM would have the police let get away or not show up if someone called 911. I sure they would rather the cops would have showed up and even if one of them were tragically killed maybe some of the others would have survived.

Shouting Thomas said...

Yes, the family is reacting as you would expect. Who can blame them?

Your attitude is reminiscent of people I encounter who lament that nursing home staffers don't do their job perfectly. They never factor in the inherent chaos and insanity of the environment of the nursing home.

You've got a lot of experience dealing with mad dog ex-cons I gather. You seem to know how to walk into the scene of a savage home invasion and kidnapping and fix things with surgical precision.

You've got to pass on this wisdom to the rest of us.

The family is justifiably in mourning and angry at the cops. I guess they could take your attitude, and wish the cops had never should up. How many dead and tortured bodies do you think this criminal would have produced?

chickelit said...

Wow, so "leftist" = cop hater.

Translation: leftist = authority hater. To a leftist (and others here) there is no greater authority than reason. It doesn't matter if crime isn't reasonable -- it's just turn the other butt cheek for them. I think they enjoy the frisson, actually.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

ST, you seem to be missing the bigger point, the cop shot the girl in the head. She was not previously dead.

ST, you don't always come across as the most level headed guy but you are a talker and I would guess that nine times out of ten you could produce a better result in the same situation. What appalled me with this case was that the cop clearly placed his own safety above that of the victim.

Being a cop, it turns out, is not an especially risky occupation. Loggers have a fatality rate that is 11 times higher. Much the same for fishermen. It’s twice as dangerous to be a truck driver than a cop. It's six times more dangerous to live in Baltimore than to be a cop. The average murder rate of cops is actually below the national average.

In part this is because cops have developed a shoot first, ask questions later strategy. It is a very difficult job but they get a premium salary and pension to literally take a bullet for the public yet rarely seem to take any professional risks at all.

chickelit said...

It is a very difficult job but they get a premium salary and pension to literally take a bullet for the public yet rarely seem to take any professional risks at all.

Could one say the same about you?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

chickelit said...
Could one say the same about you?


I will still be working when I am seventy. I have met retired cops in their early forties. So no, the same could not be said.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Shouting Thomas said...
The young woman is dead because a black criminal invaded her home.


She was a hostage because a criminal invaded her home. She is dead because she was shot by a cop. This is not complex.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm not aware of this "willingness to take a bullet for the public" oath that cops take.

You're making that part up.

I have a rather opposite view of human nature than yours. I expect people to fail in critical situations, because in my experience that is almost always what happens.

When I think of that home invasion in Nassau, I imagine a scene of total chaos, with everybody screaming and fighting for position. The cop entered into this scene unaware of what was going on. He had to make a decision within, probably, a fraction of a second.

The black criminal is responsible for this woman's death. Not the cop.

Shouting Thomas said...

She was shot by a cop in the midst of a chaotic home invasion.

Your attempts to blame the cop are obscene. The black criminal is responsible for this woman's death.

I can't even being to figure out what profit you see in this line you're pursuing.

I think you've locked yourself in an argumentative position that you can't extract yourself from.

Shouting Thomas said...

It's certainly true that cops are very well paid and often retire at 70% salary after 20 to 25 years.

I wouldn't take the job even for that kind of salary and perks in the NYC area.

A lot of shortstops in the major leagues are batting .230 and making $5 million a year, too.

The fact that cops are making a lot of money doesn't mean that the job of responding to home invasions can be performed will surgical precision.

You can pay a shortstop hitting .230 a million more a year, but he'll still be a .230 hitter.

Human frailty, confusion and struggle isn't erased by a big salary and perks.

chickelit said...

@ARM: if the cop had wanted to shoot the woman in the sadistic premeditated fashion you suggest, why did he wait for the criminal to intervene? Why didn't he just go there and shoot her?

Why don't you just argue that cops use crime as a pretext to get their own sadistic jollies... they use a crime to cover "their" crimes?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

chickelit said...
@ARM: if the cop had wanted to shoot the woman in the sadistic premeditated fashion you suggest, why did he wait for the criminal to intervene? Why didn't he just go there and shoot her?

Why don't you just argue that cops use crime as a pretext to get their own sadistic jollies... they use a crime to cover "their" crimes?


This is a stunningly stupid response. I never suggested anything other than that the cop was primarily concerned with his own safety, not that of Jane Q. Public. Even ST, seems to concede this point.

rcocean said...

Typical Liberal thinking:

1) Lets have gun control
2) Lets stop sending Criminals to prison (the USA has more people in jail, blah, blah)
3) Lets hate the Cops and discourage people from being joining the police force. "hey sign up and take a bullet for us".

A recipe for disaster.

Shouting Thomas said...

I don't pretend to be able to read a cop's mind from a newspaper article about a crime, and I made no representations about his state of mind.

I'm sure he wanted to go home to his wife and kids. That's a sensible human response.

Your suggestion that he was insensitive to the suffering of the deceased woman isn't supported by my reading of two articles about this crime. You're speculating.

rcocean said...

A lot of liberals - the followers, of course - think like 16 year-old kids. Adolescent. Narcissistic. Judas Priest, look at Crack, Titus, and Ingrid (or whatever).

Of course, a lot of them aren't. The leaders are playing a deeper game.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Shouting Thomas said...
Your suggestion that he was insensitive to the suffering of the deceased woman isn't supported by my reading of two articles about this crime.


I never suggested he was unaffected by the manslaughter of this woman. He is probably devastated. The point is that a variety of influences have resulted in cops coming to see themselves as separate from and above the general public. Consequently, they can't be trusted to act in your interests when things go bad. This greatly limits their utility if you see their role in protecting J. Q. Public from harm as being of vastly greater importance than handing out speeding tickets. They are a steady, reliable force when it comes to speeding tickets.

Shouting Thomas said...

If I had to make a guess about why the cop acted as he did, my bet would be that he wanted very badly to be a hero and save that young woman, and that he over estimated his composure and skill in firing into a very tight target.

Shouting Thomas said...

I don't agree about the uselessness of cops either.

Once the political will was expressed in NYC to put an end to the crime wave of the crack era, the cops cleaned up the town in a hurry.

I've seen plenty of incompetence and corruption in cops, too. I'm from Chicago.

But, that's the exception, even in Chicago.

chickelit said...

This is a stunningly stupid response. I never suggested anything other than that the cop was primarily concerned with his own safety, not that of Jane Q. Public. Even ST, seems to concede this point.

Good. Then you aren't as far along into dystopian "A Clockwork Orange" vision of society as others are.

Meade said...

chickelit said...
"I think it better to call out racism whenever it appears, especially when it's blatant."
August 29, 2014 at 1:09 AM

Shouting Thomas said...
"Meade licks Crack's ass crack clean again.
He got that bit of propaganda from his favorite raving black racist's site."
August 29, 2014 at 6:23 PM

Blogger Trooper York said...
"Clean? Seriously?
Man he is never going to work that hard."
August 29, 2014 at 6:50 PM

chickelit said...
*nothing*

Shouting Thomas said...

Yes, you are a vicious racist, Meade.

It's good that you're finally admitting it.

Shouting Thomas said...

I used to think your wife was a pretty sensible woman, Meade.

That is, until I found out what you are all about.

She has some very serious problems (don't we all) that have led her to get involved with a low life like you.

Meade said...

What's goin' on, brother?

Shouting Thomas said...

Life is good. Retired. Babysitting my granddaughter.

Old Dawgz will be appearing next weekend at Bethel Woods, site of the original 1969 Woodstock Festival.

We'll be releasing our first CD of original material within a few months.

One of the tunes, in a draft form, is up on my website today.

ndspinelli said...

Breathe everyone, breathe. Show your derision by ignoring and going to a good blog for legal issues, Turley. You have to watch your language, and have to avoid Inga, but it's a fun place.

Meade said...

Nick Spinelli, cub classroom monitor:

on 1, August 30, 2014 at 8:29 am Nick Spinelli
"Samantha Lowrey, Lighten up! When a new person arrives w/ a chip on their shoulder it raises a red flag. However, I will play it straight and give some perspective.

I always encourage a new person to read some of the archives here to understand the drill. If you take the time to do so, you’ll understand better what I just said. You will see the wonderfully eclectic nature of this forum. Your response, or lack of one, will tell me much."

on 1, August 30, 2014 at 8:46 am Any old guy
"Ah, yes, the self-appointed blog monitor weighs in at 8:29 am. He seems to believe that this is his personal fiefdom.

There is no “drill”, Nick."

LOL. Poor Nick — always looking for love in all the wrong blogs.

Shouting Thomas said...

143 comments and still going.

I'm making it 144 because I hate odd numbers.

chickelit said...

chickelit said...
*nothing*

August 30, 2014 at 11:00 AM


I said nothing because I do consider Crack's blog to be racist. But I haven't been there in months...has he cleaned it up? And you, Meade, have never had a problem with any of Crack's antics which I found self-destructive. Why wasn't there a behind the scenes move on your part to tell Crack "You know I like you immensely, but you're not helping"?

Yes, the ass crack licking analogy was dirty and vile imagery, but not racist IMO.

Meade said...

"Yes, the ass crack licking analogy was dirty and vile imagery, but not racist IMO."

Not "especially blatant" enough IYO?

chickelit said...

I said I objected to blatant racism, Meade. I just said that the vile imagery in question wasn't racist.

I think you're being circular here, Meade. Try being more square and obey the law of the Pack.

Shouting Thomas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shouting Thomas said...

Jesus Christ!

It's a beautiful day, and I've got a gig tonight.

And this fucking jackass wants to whack off over his idiot racism fetish again.

Find a different kind of porn to get yourself off, Meade.

As I said, my opinion of your wife has gone down the toilet as I've learned what you are all about. She's fucked up. She'll put up with your shit.

That says a lot.

MamaM said...

LOL. Poor Nick — always looking for love in all the wrong blogs.

ROTFLMAO! Poor Nick. If only he knew that looking for love at the right blog could land him a job as moderator, he'd be in-spin!

ndspinelli said...

Mama, It's like watching a train wreck and enjoying every second of it. A guilty pleasure. What a creepy stalker we have in a leisure suit.

The Dude said...

It is Saturday and the drunks are drinkin' like mofos in Madison.

Cheers!

ken in tx said...

About the hostage shooting, in some jurisdictions, any death or injury that occurs during a crime is charged to the criminal. I remember a case where two guys robbed a bank and were running from and shooting at the police. The police shot and killed one of them. The surviving crook was charged with that death, tried and convicted of it. If a bystander had been shot by the police, he would have been charged with that as well.

Meade said...

chickelit said...
"I said I objected to blatant racism, Meade. I just said that the vile imagery in question wasn't racist."

Okay. I think I understand — you think it better to call out racism whenever it appears... but you don't think that was racist and it especially wasn't blatantly racist. It was only vile in a non-racist way. Thanks for the clarification.

chickelit said...

Thanks for the clarification.

You're welcome, Meade.