Sunday, January 26, 2014

"... there are cultural forces at work"

"A seemingly un-American fact about America today is that for some groups, much more than others, upward mobility and the American dream are alive and well. It may be taboo to say it, but certain ethnic, religious and national-origin groups are doing strikingly better than Americans overall."

NYT Oped: What Drives Success?

64 comments:

edutcher said...

Although a good bit probably has to do with that word immigrant (legal, of course), I'm betting a lot has to do with those words the Lefties hate.

Family.

Discipline.

Education.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

"America has always been at its best when it has had to overcome adversity and prove its mettle on the world stage."

Time to invade France and bomb Japan?

chickelit said...

It's not what you drive but rather what drives you.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Just because it's Sunday, which ethnic groups do best in porn? Because, that can be a really tough industry that still pays huge dividends if you're dedicated and talented enough.

Eric the Fruit Bat said...

I could be wrong, but I think the Indians are up and coming in that economic sector, as well.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It's interesting that a likely unpredicted excerpt in the NYT lent those two the respectability that they missed when the rest of the MSM (including NYPost! Lol) first reported this, but still, I think one can take it too far. Bill O'Really? was dumbfounded to discover a few weeks ago that Chinese kids, despite whatever massive superiority he ascribes to them and their society, text message each other at rates he'd find alarming. That's interesting, seeing as how you'd think putting your thoughts into writing, no matter how abridged, would increase literate expression and success.

There are huge downsides to these observations though, and we can ascribe them no less generically to the same cultures in question. One Vietnamese kid I knew came up with the astute idea that totalitarianism was rampant in Asia because of its respect for elders, and inability to allow for the kind of freedom, questioning and rebellion, inherent in youth, that Western societies - especially the U.S. - encourage.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Sometimes it seems to me that connies are too willing to forgive China's totalitarianism in exchange for admiring the fact that its massive population is finally industrializing. The economic growth resulting from that is the same happy accident that would occur when a similarly large population/nation undergoes industrialization, so the idea that we need to feel that the Chinese, with all their totalitarianism, are to be admired for simply undergoing the same process in greater numbers, baffles me.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well, Eric, it's good to see that the society that gave us the Kama Sutra is finally getting back to embracing its roots. Their former puritanism must have been a throwback to Victorian British occupation.

chickelit said...

Rhythm and Balls said...
Just because it's Sunday, which ethnic groups do best in porn?

Stop dinging the man, Ritmo.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I'm a fan of the man and not just oat bran!

Actually, you know who's a fan of the man? Pal-lady-ANNE!

I meant to say Palladian but then you wouldn't have rearranged the stressed syllables enough to make it rhyme.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Why aren't there more Asian psychiatrists? It's true, at $186,000 annually they're at the lower end of physician salaries, but still, that's not a shabby income by Chua's definition. Don't you think there's a market for a dejected soul to enter an office to talk about his problems and be yelled at for not being a high achiever, a loser?

If verbal abuse made for spiritual and emotional improvement, I could get that by doing just the right thing (i.e. the wrong thing) out on the street and pissing a very vocal person off. But the talent to find a way to making more from the same kind of help is under-represented in Asian Americans, and I think Ms. Chua should be ashamed of her ethnic group for that.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Amy Chua and Jed Rubenfeld have to be two of the most self-satisfied fuckers on the planet. One of their kids got into Harvard. There are no shortage of less obnoxious parents who can boast the same.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Just sayin

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

If Chua and Rubenfeld are looking for ways to feed the inferiority complex that they feel help drive their success, I can find a way to give that to them.

I can also find a way to help improve their impulse control. Writing what they wrote was a pretty impulsive thing to do.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Italian Americans have been somewhat successful in America, and without losing their salt-of-the-earth appreciation for life, or of aesthetics and good art. Some even more sophisticated than Madonna.

Did you hear the one about the Chinese Godfather? He was prepared to make you an offer you couldn't understand.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

I might add one more to edutcher's list

Community.

In addition to a supportive and INTACT family structure, discipline and directive from said family and the recognition that an education is key to getting ahead or going upwardly mobile; a community of like minded individuals who also have those cultural traits is important.

Young people take their cues from their family, friends and the community values around them.

Unfortunately, and not to try to summon a conversation about racism, the children in the inner city black and ghettoized hispanics are being raised in communities that lack family, lack any semblance of discipline and which actually glorify criminal activity. They are being raised in a culture that disparages education and often are picked on as 'acting white' when they try to get an education or show interest in learning. The COMMUNITY is not supportive. These poor children have everything against them when it comes to being able to break out of the rat maze that they are in and become upwardly mobile. They have the ability. It is just being quashed.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Jews don't usually go about extolling/reveling in their superiority, and they openly whine about feeling inferior. Their biggest detriment is obnoxiously arguing you to death.

You can tell who wears the pants in the Chua-Rubenfeld relationship. Tiger woman!

Ok, someone else chime in. I'm getting tired of bashing that woman already.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

If you want some decent ethnic humor, I recommend no one more highly than the Canadian-Indian comic Russell Peters.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

China is very community-oriented. In fact, their government bases its philosophical underpinnings on something so community-oriented that it uses it in the name it goes by: COMMUNISM!

Only two letters different from "community". ;-)

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Please, someone stop me. I beg of you.

I must have had too much caffeine or something.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Rhythm and Balls said...
Ok, someone else chime in. I'm getting tired of bashing that woman already.


Keep going. You are doing a good job and its an important community service.

Notably Socrates, Galileo, Newton, Euler and Darwin all fail to be members of her preferred 'cultural' groups.

Odds are her kids end up working as dermatologists in a private practice cosmetic surgery group.

No doubt her salary as an academic lawyer is inadequate compared to the much more financially successful lawyers she knows and she wants sell books to compensate.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Well, we can certainly make it more generic. I was worried about making this too Chinese-"specific".

But the point about generic financial "success" being as important as she makes it out to be is what makes her rant farcical. We can look to what certain regions of the world and how they've fared, and the overall success of Europe and (by extension) America can obviously be traced back to Greek philosophy. In no way did they look at the "success", as she defines it, in aristocratic or nouveau riche terms. They looked at it as having a full and examined life.

But then, they lived in beautiful surroundings with decent, sunny, warm weather all-year round.

sakredkow said...

Just wondering, are these groups upwardly mobile or are other groups just sinking?

Chip S. said...

But then, they lived in beautiful surroundings with decent, sunny, warm weather all-year round

Also, they had slaves.

[ducks]

ricpic said...

Hey Amy, get with it! Wow, are you out of it, considering all the with-it people (just ask Schmendrick) know the way to get to the top of the heap is to spend those vital prep years in a choom gang.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You don't have to duck. Other societies at the time (and much later, if you consider feudalism to be similar) had slaves. But they still didn't come up with what the Greeks did.

Chip S. said...

I'm not sure what you're arguing here, Ritmo, wrt the Chua article. I thought you were saying that wealth isn't an important determinant of happiness, so I pointed out that the Athenians' ability to think great thoughts was partly due to their freedom from the word done by their slaves. Which is to say, due to their wealth. The fact that they made better use of their time than the landlords of the Middle Ages doesn't refute Chua's claims at all unless you can document that the landed classes had more of the alleged success-attitudes than did their serfs.

Chip S. said...

Or maybe the right comparison is b/w the attitudes of the ancient Athenians and the M.A. landlords.

I admit that I'm not really sure what it is about Chua's argument that you're objecting to.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I don't know why assume I have only one thing to say about it one way or another. I think she may have a point, but it's limited by how obnoxious she is and the emphasis she places on it. It's like someone saying that Looney Tunes is better than Disney and not understanding why my agreement is casual, instead of strenuous. Becoming upset that I nod my head instead of banging my hands on the table. Sometimes a simple yes or no is better than swearing up and down in its defense or objection.

Athens had no more slaves than most societies that conquered others at the time, so that doesn't play into it. Slavery was a part of warfare and capture and it was endemic so no, that didn't make Athenian philosophy more advanced than other societies' thoughts. The Romans were tons more powerful than Greece ever was. Still, they thought the Greeks to lazy pussies despite contributing greatly to the same ideas of civilization that they expanded upon. I only mention warm climate because it's easier to enjoy and take time to ponder things than it would in Scotland. Or I guess a contrast to pre-Christian Scandinavia would be more appropriate.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Chip S. said...
I admit that I'm not really sure what it is about Chua's argument that you're objecting to.


I think you are being a bit disingenuous here. Clearly Chua's conception of success is hopelessly narrow both qualitatively and historically.

Chip S. said...

Clearly Chua's conception of success is hopelessly narrow both qualitatively and historically.

I'll grant you that point if you'll hold to it in future discussions of the claim that income inequality is the Number One Problem in the US.

Chip S. said...

I don't know why assume I have only one thing to say about it one way or another.

It's not a matter of assumptions. I just wanted to know what point(s) you were trying to make, b/c I'm interested in understanding them.

ricpic said...

Schmendrick LOL's the NY Post, but could that dead fishwrap that Schmendrick worships, the NY Times, have come up with this headline regarding the Froggie first lady who was just given her walking papers by Monsieur Hollande, one of Schmendrick's beloved socialist losers, who wants to dip his prick in a different tart?

PACK YOUR BAGUETTES!

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Chip S. said...
I'll grant you that point if you'll hold to it in future discussions of the claim that income inequality is the Number One Problem in the US.


Mighty kind of you pardner.

I don't think I have done this in the past. I tend to focus on equalizing opportunity (universal health care, decent schools) and the misallocation of resources (the finance industry).

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Geez Ripfart, no one's saying conservative tabloids like the Post can't come up with entertaining headlines. And when did I LOL anything about them other than their ability to out-PC the NYT, rippie?

As for Hollande, I'm sure he and his voters are much less concerned with his penis than you are. I'm sure no one but the most sheltered retrograde cares about the fact that they can make an English pun out of that concern, in fact.

You've got to admit that rip sure does find some pretty irrelevant ways to elbow his way into conversations. Maybe it's his "superiority-inferiority" complex.

Ever travelled outside one of the boroughs, rip? Someone as strong in his pre-formed opinions as you (and with as much wealth, because what self-respecting connie would do without that?) has travelled and seen enough to have something worth talking about.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

As long as income inequality has been raised, can I just say how conflicted I am about focusing on that (but really, and especially) de-leveraging the finance industry? I agree that opportunity should be more widespread.

But on one hand, I'm actually kind of sympathetic to the idea that investment can become a greater share of our income than labor, generally. I kind of like that. On the other hand, though, to what extent is that likely or preferable? Does anyone know?

It seems that finding the answer to that is the key to understanding some of our more important future economic trends.

Lydia said...

"I think she may have a point, but it's limited by how obnoxious she is and the emphasis she places on it."

Maybe the obnoxiousness is a feature rather than a bug in her marketing plan. I think that's a large part of what draws attention to her, and her books. Which may be her largest concern, rather than getting her point across.

Chip S. said...

ARM: Talking about "decent" schools doesn't really clear things up. Did you not read any part of the article this thread is putatively about? You can't separate school performance from the behavioral and study habits of the students in them. At least that's what I always hear from critics of charter schools and voucher plans. Or are you on board w/ charter schools, in which case we don't disagree?

"Universal health care" was the point of Medicare, wasn't it? What you seem to mean by "universal" is "equal", regardless of the resulting quality level. If you don't care about inequality per se, then once again you and I agree that we should do as much as possible to keep the US health-care system intact while subsidizing basic health care for the poor.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Lydia said...
Maybe the obnoxiousness is a feature rather than a bug in her marketing plan. I think that's a large part of what draws attention to her, and her books. Which may be her largest concern, rather than getting her point across.


All publicity is good publicity if you have a thick hide. She is Howard Stern in a dress.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I know it's not popular, but sometimes I think a number of things can be simultaneously true. Smart/hard-working kids at terrible schools can still do well, but have to make the most of their education probably by taking advantage of supplementing their coursework at the local college. And you'd have to admit that a school with a shitty reputation is going to lose good students whose parents have the means to pull them out of there pretty quickly. Others mentioned community. Schools with really strong reputations have a way of making even the weaker students want to do really well, through peer pressure.

I think all these things are true. It's not either/or. But when it comes to kids, as with everything else that becomes an important "issue", everyone has to have an all-or-nothing philosophy that somehow proves that whatever they've been able to do for them is all that counts.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Chip S. said...
ARM: Talking about "decent" schools doesn't really clear things up.


I went to one very crappy school in my school career, one very good one and one on the upper end. The crappy one did turn me off academics for some time but I generally agree that family is much more important than the school.

Watching my dad spend weekends learning some new math or develop other intellectual skills was probably a bigger influence on me than anything else, although largely unrecognized at the time.

If you look at the reality of liberal lives, rather than the right-wing cartoon version, they are generally quite focused on family centered academic success. As Yale law professors Chua and Rubenfeld are probably pretty liberal in general. Still endlessly obnoxious.

deborah said...

ARM:
"Notably Socrates, Galileo, Newton, Euler and Darwin all fail to be members of her preferred 'cultural' groups."

Did you read the article. She says different ethnicities, such as Black, Hispanic, and Asian can perform well in the right cultural milieu.

She brings forth Cubans and Nigerians, among others, as 'winners' in the game. But she also says that by generation three, there tends to be a reversion to the mean.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

deborah said...
She brings forth Cubans and Nigerians, among others, as 'winners' in the game.


I think the issue here is what are the goals of the game that the Chua's 'winners' win and is that game the best one for our society to focus on as a whole. I happen to think we have enough lawyers, dermatologists and investment bankers already.

I like the idea of equality of respect that several people have raised, which is one reason I see Germany as an important model for our post-industrial societies. We will in fact never be a truly post-industrial so it is important that we recognize the value of what everyone does for our society rather than obsess about the importance of a small slice of the community. Personally, I have a lot more time for a modestly successful woodworker than I have for a lawyer, but I am not a fan of lawyers in general. A more pluralistic vision of society than Chua's is a healthier one in my view.

chickelit said...

Personally, I have a lot more time for a modestly successful woodworker than I have for a lawyer, but I am not a fan of lawyers in general.

So that explains why you spend more time here than at TOP. :)

Trooper York said...

Holy Cow!

ARM is more of a fan of Sixty Grit than is of the Evil Blogger Lady.

Good to know.

Trooper York said...

I always knew you were a really smart guy ARM.

Just a little wrongheaded.

Maybe we can change that.

deborah said...

ARM, have you read the article? I thought it was a positive take that people aren't bound by race or ethnicity, but culture. And certain cultural patterns shift over the generations.

Things are still bad in lots of places, but I'll go with the Beatle's song, it's getting better all the time.

For example, in a hospital, you will see stratification among the workers. Mainly white, Indian, Asian doctors, a mix of nurses, a good portion black, and a lot of black in the nurses's aide position. But there is mutual respect displayed,, if not alwaya actually felt, as everyone is part of a team. Also you will find a large part of the security and secretarial staff to be black. Things change slowly over time. I think you are giving the Chua article short shrift, and I would like to know a specific passage that put you off.

deborah said...

Further, we do need more doctors, dermatologists included, engineers, etc. I think your dispargement of dermatologists and lawyers is an ad hominem attack, and cheaply made.

Her article is worthwhile, and to be honest, I was surprised to see who had written it when I came to the end.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Trooper York said...
Just a little wrongheaded.

Maybe we can change that.


I suspect I am a hopeless case. My father was a strong union supporter and my mother once voted communist. As the Jesuits say, 'Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man'.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

deborah said...
I think your dispargement of dermatologists and lawyers is an ad hominem attack, and cheaply made.


Sorry, I am not being that serious. But, a lot of work that is not truly competitive i.e. in competition with other countries, such as the export industries and R&D is really just make work. How many dermatologists do we need? There is no limit, we could all do with better skin care. They could expand exponentially and still find things to do. Much the same is true of lawyers and financiers. Some professions are like cancers they can grow almost without restraint if left to their own devices.


I thought it was a positive take that people aren't bound by race or ethnicity, but culture. And certain cultural patterns shift over the generations.

Things are still bad in lots of places, but I'll go with the Beatle's song, it's getting better all the time.



I agree with this sentiment in general, though positive trends can be deceptive. Jews were fully integrated into German society during the first world war. My grandfather was gassed using technology first developed by Fritz Haber. He survived. I think it is dangerous to assume that advances can't turn into rapid retreats when things go bad.

With respect to Chua, I think she is just a huckster looking to make a buck off of other peoples insecurities.

Trooper York said...

My family were long term union members. They were in the International Longshoreman Association which was one of the most corrupt unions in the history of the world. I had the opportunity to join and get a featherbedded job for a lot of dough and I didn't take it.

Maybe that was a mistake. I would have made out great financially. But I didn't think it was right.

I hope to tempt you over to the dark side.

deborah said...

"I agree with this sentiment in general, though positive trends can be deceptive. Jews were fully integrated into German society during the first world war."

This is not germane to the discussion.

If willing, please give examples of Chua's hucksterism, esp. from this article.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Hi Deborah, I don't mean to offend. One persons huckster is another person's guiding light. I am deeply grateful to yoga teachers I had more than thirty years ago although I am sure Crack would dismiss them as new age quacks and me as a damn fool.

We have a few women like Amy Chua around where I live and I have my issues with how they raise their kids. We live in uncertain times and people are susceptible to the message that neurotically competitive child rearing is the only way to ensure their child's success. I am not convinced of this or that the products of these kinds of child rearing practices are the most well adjusted individuals. So, when I dismiss her as a huckster, I am largely referring to her last book. More generally I think it is fair to say that she is taking controversial positions in order to sell books.

deborah said...

Thanks. When The Tiger Mother and its attendant controversy came out, I didn't pay much attention. She sounded neurotic, and few things will screw up a kid like a helicopter parent.

So, as I said, I was surprised to come to the end of the article and see it was by Chua. Maybe she's trying to lighten her stance or make herself more sympathetic by including other ethnic groups.

One thing stressed in the article is the desirability of insecurity in order to create a 'winner.' Doesn't sound healthy to me.

My sister's husband came through a tough life, beginning in foster care. He made his way into the Army, Lab Tech degree, and finally, doctor. He wasn't the insecure type...just a positive-thinking all-around good guy. I mean he had normal insecurities based on humble beginning, but not on his general worth being dependent upon what he became. I don't know, maybe he did. All that said, toxic shame/insecurity over self-worth should not be part of a child's incentive package.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

You can't separate school performance from the behavioral and study habits of the students in them.

You can build a Taj Mahal palace of a school but if the inhabitants are not interested in learning the surroundings, glass, bricks and mortar mean nothing. A one room school house in the middle of the Trinity Alps (like the one my husband went to until 7th grade) with dedicated teachers, strict discipline and a strong family insisting on correct behaviour will do more than the most expensive school that lacks those other things.

She says different ethnicities, such as Black, Hispanic, and Asian can perform well in the right cultural milieu.

and

by generation three, there tends to be a reversion to the mean.


This is true. The culture, family support etc IS the be all. The reversion to the mean isn't necessarily what you think it is. The decline is the adaption of the culture of the leftists and popular media encouragement into debauchery. It is the abandoning of the harder things and acceptance of the easy path. This is why home schooled children excel. They are not nearly as infected with the "popular culture".

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Damn....needs a comma after learning.

Insecurity is not a bad thing. If your child is always told he is a special snowflake and he will always win the game; always take the trophy no matter what your child is being crippled.

Children need to compete. To lose and be insecure so that when the WIN comes it is really special. Really earned and it is an accomplishment, not just another ho hum handed to you on a silver platter item.

When you are insecure....you try harder.

My family traveled, extensively, when I was a child. Often my brother and I went to at least 4 to 5 schools in a single school year. Schools in different States. Michigan, Mississippi, Texas and Oregon all in one school year. We skipped weeks and months of schooling often. This might make a child insecure....doncha think? Yes. BUT. I think it made us stronger.

deborah said...

"When you are insecure....you try harder."

Or you shut down. I'm not talking about 'regualar' insecurity over succeeding with grades, but over-bearing helicopter parents that make their kids anxious, or worse.

With regard to the article, the insecurity related to poverty was unavoidable. The Chua kind, as I understand it, sounds kind of batty. I really shouldn't say without having read the book.

I wonder how happy her girls are as adults.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Well, there is the issue of regular insecurity. Life isn't fair. Get over it. Pick yourself up. Stop whining. Try harder. You can't win every time. No one can save you all the time from yourself......Coupled with the loving support of your parents or community giving you positive feedback when you DO succeed. It's OK. Sometimes you don't get the prize.....you are still loved and treasured. Next time.

Versus. Constant carping that you aren't good enough. Not making the grade. That B+ should be an A. Comparing you to others and always coming up short. Feeling that you aren't loved if you don't make the grade.

One type of insecurity is normal, healthy and teaches to try try try again because the prize at the end of the game is well earned. The other....as I assume you mean over bearing parenting, is not productive and can be destructive in some cases.

deborah said...

And it's the latter types that are going to go to the Ivies and rise in governmental ranks. And be hospital administrators.

Evi L. Bloggerlady said...

Here is a similar study that is obviously flawed to get a result rather than really study data...

deborah said...

Thanks, Evi. Was the study flawed, or the author-under-scrutiny flawed (I really don't know), in the conclusions he drew from the data?

JAL said...

Think Tiger Mom's latest book.

How dare the NYT notice racial, ethnic, and religious differences.

JAL said...
This comment has been removed by the author.